Welding On A New Tractor

[claridon]

There is an excellent long running thread in this forum titled "Repair/mechanic tricks and or tips?". A few of the posts cautioned about welding on a tractor equipped with an Electronic Control Module. Recommendation was made that the battery be disconnected proir to welding to prevent "blowing out" the ECM.
I'm about to weld reinforcing angles and chain hooks and possibly a grapple to the top of my loader bucket on my L3540. Is disconnecting the battery sufficient protection for the ECM? I'm guessing disconnecting the negative battery terminal prevents amperage from feeding into the electronics thru the negative side of the circuit. But I don't know for sure if that's all that's needed or if that's even a correct assumption.
I'm grateful for you guys enlightening me on this BEFORE I blew out my very expensive ECM! At this point I'm asking any of you with the experience or electronics savy to elaborate on the precautions for welding on these fancy new tractors.
Thank you in advance.
-Len Smith

 

[bjcsc]

An extra measure of safety when doing this would be to disconnect the positive and negative leads from the battery. Then take a clamp and clamp the two leads together, metal to metal. If you do a search you'll find that this is the preferred method for welding on vehicles with sensitive electronics.

That said, there would be no worries, and it would be a whole lot easier to simply drop the bucket...

 

[john_bud]

You should be fine, especially doing as the previous poster stated and connect the battery cables.

Also, make sure the ground connection is on the bucket when welding on the bucket. You don't want to arc the pin to bushing!

jb

 

[doxford jim]

There is an excellent long running thread in this forum titled "Repair/mechanic tricks and or tips?". A few of the posts cautioned about welding on a tractor equipped with an Electronic Control Module. Recommendation was made that the battery be disconnected proir to welding to prevent "blowing out" the ECM.
I'm about to weld reinforcing angles and chain hooks and possibly a grapple to the top of my loader bucket on my L3540. Is disconnecting the battery sufficient protection for the ECM? I'm guessing disconnecting the negative battery terminal prevents amperage from feeding into the electronics thru the negative side of the circuit. But I don't know for sure if that's all that's needed or if that's even a correct assumption.
I'm grateful for you guys enlightening me on this BEFORE I blew out my very expensive ECM! At this point I'm asking any of you with the experience or electronics savy to elaborate on the precautions for welding on these fancy new tractors.
Thank you in advance.
-Len Smith

Hi Len,

Why don't you take the bucket off and then do the welding. I have just recently repaired the bucket on my old MF65 - but I removed the bucket. Mine has just three pins and is diconnected in as many minutes. Plus, you get to be able to work on it (bucket) in comfort as you canmove it around to suit your welding position.

Just a thought and it worked well for me - no worries about ECM or engine bearings etc.

Jim

 

[BTDT]

Welcome to TBN. Good luck with the mods on your new tractor. Once you get this done, what projects do you have lined up?

 

[sandman2234]

And if the suggested method doesn't work, what then? Just how much is your time worth taking the bucket off, OR waiting till UPS delivers the wrong, very expensive, broken part that you will have to send back and argue with them over replacement?
I vote remove the bucket!!
David from jax

 

[MJPetersen]

no worries about ECM or engine bearings etc.

Jon Bud was not referring to engine bearings when he made the statement regarding the ground clamp for welding. He was referring to the pins and bushings in the loader arms. If, for example, you attached the ground to the tractor frame and then welded on the bucket. The result is that current at high amperage would travel through the bucket, loader arms, and to the frame. In this process it is highly likely that there would be arcing (welding) taking place in the pin/bushing mating surfaces, which will scar, or otherwise damage them. Then welding on equipment, the rule is ALWAYS connect the ground as close to the weld area as possible.

The suggestions regarding disconnecting the battery cables and connecting them together and having the welding ground clamp close to the weld area will easily be sufficient. However, if you are still uncomfortable, then by all means, take the bucket off and weld on it. The peace of mind, especially on a new tractor, may be worth the extra work involved.

Mike

 

[RoyJackson]

I'd also suggest removing the bucket. If it's a QA type, that's a 30 second operation.

 

[claridon]

Thank you all for the quick replies.
For my particular project I am going to remove the bucket before welding. Although I didn't ask the question very well, I was looking for general guidance regarding protecting the electronics while doing welding on my tractor, and you guys gave me what I was after:
1) Whenever possible, remove the item to be welded, from the chassis.
2) If it can't be removed, protect the ECM by disconnecting both leads from the battery and clamp the ends together.
3) Make welder ground connection close to weld area when welding on the chassis.
Thanks again.
-Len

 

[john_bud]

Len,

Good summary. Follow that and you will have fewer problems.

The only thing to add is that weld quality will be immeasureably better by always grinding down to bare metal to ensure a good ground and contamination free weld.

jb

 

[AlanB]

I will be the naysayer here.

Removing your battery from the circuit does not prevent frying of electronics.

If you are concerned about a particular component, such as an ECM, the best bet is to remove it from the vehicle, or what you are welding so there are no conductive pathways through it.

For some reason (and maybe I am just out in left field) this is one of the things were "every body" says disconnecting the battery breaks the circuit. And I would respond that not neccessarily. The voltage doing damage is not from your battery, it is from the welder. Take the above example of the loader pivots, battery in, out, connected or on the moon, you still can pass currrent through those bearings / pins etc when welding. Same can be done through any electrically conductive item on your tractor, and some react substantially worse then others.

That said, the part to heed is in the post above, excellent clean ground, very near where the welding occurs, and nothing that you don't want current passing through between.

Have fun, and I weld on my buckets off if convienient, or on if it is something quick.

 

[firedog]

I would agree with Alan on that point. disconnecting the battery only removes the battery from the loop. There are other points in the wiring system that connect to ground. the system as a whole being somewhat a closed loop with a few connections to the frame giving it a reference point.
Taking the battery out of the picture doesn't change the wiring connections to ground.

 

[dbdartman]

Alan B & firedog are correct, simply disconnecting the battery cables does not isolate the electronics from the chassis. I spent some 13 years working in a fab shop that specialized in drag race cars. These cars typically had little in the way of wiring, & what it had was typically very simple in nature. They also had very expensive ignition control modules (typically from MSD). Our standard procedure was to remove both the main feed (12v+) & ground wires at the ignition box & isolate them from the chassis before welding was done ANYWHERE on the cars. Never had an electronics failure. Having the welder's ground as close to the area being welded was also important in these cars. Most suspension components were mounted on pivots/ball joints ( called heim joints). Passing welding current through these joints is not good for them, the same as passing current through pins & bushings.

Since you're welding on the bucket, & even in the worst case they are easily removed (& that's what you plan to do), it's not a problem. If you do have an reason to weld on something that's not removable, I'd not only remove both battery cables, but I'd also do everything in my power to unplug any electronic boxes from the wiring harness. As is usual in this forum, a factory service manual is a must!

 

[RobJ]

But in all my years of working on stuff I've never heard of a welder causing problems with an alternator, pcm, etc. Personally I think themost effective precaution is keeping the gound clamp as close to the welding point as possible. There is probably a greater chance of your tractor getting struck by lightining and being damaged.

Good Luck,
Rob

 

[2manyrocks]

O/A welding wouldn't have these issues.

I had not thought of arcs between the pins and bushings before. So I've learned something.

If the bucket is sitting in contact with the ground, would this help reduce these problems?

 

[ccsial]

O/A welding wouldn't have these issues.

I had not thought of arcs between the pins and bushings before. So I've learned something.

If the bucket is sitting in contact with the ground, would this help reduce these problems?

NO, Current flows form the electrode to weldor common, not necessarily ground.

 

[AlanB]

O/A welding wouldn't have these issues.

I had not thought of arcs between the pins and bushings before. So I've learned something.

If the bucket is sitting in contact with the ground, would this help reduce these problems?

But O/A has an entire host of problems associated with it as well.

 

[2manyrocks]

Okay-ground contact doesn't help.

What kinds of other problems do you see using O/A in this situation?

Thanks.

 

[AlanB]

The amount of heat required welding thick parts, the transfer of heat to less heat tolerant components.
The additional skill required to make a structurally sound weld as compared to the various forms of electric welding.
The higher probablility of heat distortion and warping of the work.
The potential damage to seal's etc (obviously dependent on location) and other hydraulic components.
The larger heat effected area in general will generally call for more paint touch up work and rework.

Biggest for me and why I would reach for some form of electric welder rather then the O/A if the tractor was in front of the shop is the amount of time and prep it would take me to do a satisfactory gas weld as compared to a satisfactory electric weld.

 

[RobJ]

Personally I don't think O/A is as strong. A brazing rod vs. steel? The metals also don't really mix IMO. You can control the head transfer, same way an AC guy will wrap a wet rag on the copper near the valve to protect the seals, it works.

OK new suggestion....BOLT THE SUCKER ON!!!