Sberry
Platinum Member
Ya, why have a couple simple safe circuits when he could complicate it with junk he doesn't need.
Welder/Plasma supply wireing, need homework graded
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user.69169
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Everybody need busduct. Its de manly way.
the old grind
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BO box should IMO demand the discipline of no two machines connected in use at the same time. (bet (removed) would, he's such a tease and would leave that out 
) It's still the breaker for it that'd trip with over draw.
I might have 6-20, 6-50, and 10-50 outlets therein for versatility, but 20 & 30a bits might also want to be fused proper accordingly by themselves.
Lucky for me when remodeling I may move switches, outlets, GFCIs, but rarely have to add any to existing 15 or 20a circuits. (... and what power balance does for your bill)
So I do mostly new work and every outlet gets its own breaker. Exceptions might be 110 (120v) outlets over a workbench or around walls, but that's about it, and done for convenience vs for all to be used. 220 (240v) outlet or hard-wired always get breaker per or y'all can DIY your own s__. I'll bring my own coffee to watch that part.
) It's still the breaker for it that'd trip with over draw.I might have 6-20, 6-50, and 10-50 outlets therein for versatility, but 20 & 30a bits might also want to be fused proper accordingly by themselves.
Lucky for me when remodeling I may move switches, outlets, GFCIs, but rarely have to add any to existing 15 or 20a circuits. (... and what power balance does for your bill)
So I do mostly new work and every outlet gets its own breaker. Exceptions might be 110 (120v) outlets over a workbench or around walls, but that's about it, and done for convenience vs for all to be used. 220 (240v) outlet or hard-wired always get breaker per or y'all can DIY your own s__. I'll bring my own coffee to watch that part.
user.69169
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Always like seein pictures of weld carts guys build. Dey stack up machines on top tiny wheels and hang tanks on cart, den got power cord from each machine stretched to wall. Even know of guys (no name mentioned) who use scope carts dey scored someplace so machine slanted cause dey gut too big to bend over and set all de button & knob.
Keep askin but nobody yet got answer for why dey don't just build plugstrip into cart.
Gotta hunt up picture my cube tap splitter.
Bus duct drives wimmens completely wild.
Keep askin but nobody yet got answer for why dey don't just build plugstrip into cart.
Gotta hunt up picture my cube tap splitter.
Bus duct drives wimmens completely wild.
Sberry
Platinum Member
I am sorry to anyone I offend. Wasn't meant to be personal but it's obvious this forum needs a couple more/other guys to go on to some detail about some of the fundamentals of circuit design that are incomplete. Thanks to a couple mails that said keep e it up but its distracting.
The concepts I am talking about were not invented by me. I did the same thing,, why but till I figured out they had thought it pretty well thru
Some of this is magnified due to the nature of welding machines.
The concepts I am talking about were not invented by me. I did the same thing,, why but till I figured out they had thought it pretty well thru
Some of this is magnified due to the nature of welding machines.
WranglerX
Super Member
Don't buy carts... Build cart with largest wheels practical..... And some people actually do understand plug in strip on cart...
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Sberry
Platinum Member
At first it seems that having multiple machines might be a concern with 2 outlets butwiref correctly it's not. In order to understand this it's important to understand some other principles involved in seleting the wire size and overcurrent.
Sberry
Platinum Member
To the original poster. This is a bunch of mental masturbation doesn't need to be at this point. I assume you do this cause there is something you want to do
Sberry
Platinum Member
Some of this is generalization and not gospel but the welder and the range deliberately have a different plug so as the guy can't come along with range and tap a welder circuit.
It wasn't by accident they configure zillions of plugs and cord ends. They size the wire the nature of the fuse and breaker so as it will trip time on thermal even with smaller wire before over heating it. That's kind of basic but another thing to consider is that the minus are single circuit in pipe so there are conditions, not any 12 wire but single circuit and this will lead up to a proper common installation that should be recommended to the op.
Most of the time some of the upside is ok, not always. It may throw othrr aspects out of compliance but
It wasn't by accident they configure zillions of plugs and cord ends. They size the wire the nature of the fuse and breaker so as it will trip time on thermal even with smaller wire before over heating it. That's kind of basic but another thing to consider is that the minus are single circuit in pipe so there are conditions, not any 12 wire but single circuit and this will lead up to a proper common installation that should be recommended to the op.
Most of the time some of the upside is ok, not always. It may throw othrr aspects out of compliance but
Sberry
Platinum Member
So we a re talking about a welder plug not a range, a range requires 8 pipe 6 cable.
To the op who has a synchro. It is considered somewhat industrial and the circuot, the cord is to be tailored by the instaler. Thete is a diffetence if i am buying or using free
I have a couple outlets with 6
To the op who has a synchro. It is considered somewhat industrial and the circuot, the cord is to be tailored by the instaler. Thete is a diffetence if i am buying or using free
I have a couple outlets with 6
Sberry
Platinum Member
Ready made welder ext cords come 8 but the synch ihas some special characteristics worth noting. Its load can basically be supported 10 but its an 8 machine due to duty cycle. They not eben worried about v drop as they extend the wire to 128 ft
It's rated input is above 50A. I think they make a 60, don't recall as most of them have a home and simply get wired direct, np way for the casual user to over load the wire or...... cause it's on a 60 breaker no where to use a 50 machine on this circuit.
So, ok should run a wire in its own pipe to that machine, it's the best, 8 is fine, if you got 6 it won't hurt.
You can use wire you have to more common 50A outlet , another circuit for cord machines all except heavy 250 feeders. Use 10 or better, that does most of them 250 class.
Everything else comes 12 cord. 10 wire is a step better than the cord and it's really quite a step, it's a lot.
So let's hypothetical for a minute and tap a breaker with 6 to a jbox or double it at the breaker so each outlet has it's own wire but hooked to a wire that is 50 rated, assume we plug 2 machines in and overload the breaker it trips before the combination can overheat the 6. So my bud buys a plasma and a 211 but has old buzzer and one outlet. His panel is full. We turn the old outlet box in to a jbox essentially and run 2 outlets with a chunk of 10 cable. He cam run both new machines, both are 25A and can still plug the buzzer in if needed and if 2 run it would trip the breaker.
It's rated input is above 50A. I think they make a 60, don't recall as most of them have a home and simply get wired direct, np way for the casual user to over load the wire or...... cause it's on a 60 breaker no where to use a 50 machine on this circuit.
So, ok should run a wire in its own pipe to that machine, it's the best, 8 is fine, if you got 6 it won't hurt.
You can use wire you have to more common 50A outlet , another circuit for cord machines all except heavy 250 feeders. Use 10 or better, that does most of them 250 class.
Everything else comes 12 cord. 10 wire is a step better than the cord and it's really quite a step, it's a lot.
So let's hypothetical for a minute and tap a breaker with 6 to a jbox or double it at the breaker so each outlet has it's own wire but hooked to a wire that is 50 rated, assume we plug 2 machines in and overload the breaker it trips before the combination can overheat the 6. So my bud buys a plasma and a 211 but has old buzzer and one outlet. His panel is full. We turn the old outlet box in to a jbox essentially and run 2 outlets with a chunk of 10 cable. He cam run both new machines, both are 25A and can still plug the buzzer in if needed and if 2 run it would trip the breaker.
Sberry
Platinum Member
You can't put 2 outlets daisy on the allowed 10 wire when it's done needs to be 50 wire and 50 breaker but no more than 50 for cord and plug machines.
It's not to be wired for the largest machine a guy owns if it is over 50.
Lots of guys running 200 from common 50/50 outlrts but if you do this then thewire needs to be 8 or better. But, in theory thete will be a qualified electricial understands all aspects of this type of circuit doing an install for a 200... knows he installing a special machine and not plug and play from existing circuit without verifying the wire, he would should remove recepts and wire it to proper conductors.
It's not to be wired for the largest machine a guy owns if it is over 50.
Lots of guys running 200 from common 50/50 outlrts but if you do this then thewire needs to be 8 or better. But, in theory thete will be a qualified electricial understands all aspects of this type of circuit doing an install for a 200... knows he installing a special machine and not plug and play from existing circuit without verifying the wire, he would should remove recepts and wire it to proper conductors.
Sberry
Platinum Member
So Joe is a smart guy and means well and it seems basic and caused he used a wire 2 sizes bigger figures all well but hasn't changed the ground in regards to the cross section of the input conductors and thrown it out of compliance and if he hooks 50 machines to this has a 50 on 80 breaker the very thing the code was trying to prevent as well as those gave the I instructions in the manual. So Joe goes on his way thinking all is well cause he used big enuf wire
Sberry
Platinum Member
If there is no discussion over it we got a whole crowd thinks all is well. This is a crowd not likely to go joint an electric forum and become real Davy and they don't need to most of the time.
Sberry
Platinum Member
All this not such an issue with wires up to 10 as grounds the same size as the conductors.
Sberry
Platinum Member
I had 3 times in.last couple yard had some grief cause of it, 2 hometime and a counter man gonna do a favor and give a roll end of larger wire.
Sberry
Platinum Member
So while the plug does allow the connection it also more importantly prevents the connection to a higher current. If it was simply too little it will trip the breaker but if it is too high it will fault and not trip the breaker properly.
Sberry
Platinum Member
I just looked at a couple older threads and as tempting as it is I ain't gonna reply on them.
There was some understanding of done but not really complete and there should be some consensus at the end but I see that it would be easy to be as confused as when it started. It's not worth it to go in to all the details other than a couple minor things. In some circumstances 30A on a 12 may be legal for a welder and wired one a while back with this. Not all but some with some particulars, I am looking for the word but it eludes me now.
A neutral is a grounded conductor in this single phase system but when it's 120v it's not a neutral it is a grounded conductor, a current carrying conductor. The ground wire is a grounding conductor. The "hot" wires are ungrounded conductors.
As for remarking wires individual conductors 6 or smaller not allowed to be remarked. Whites in cable assemblies marked all the time for 240 use and for switch loops. Allowing it is not an oversight. When used in a switch loop it should supply the switch and use real black and white going to the fixtures.
There was some understanding of done but not really complete and there should be some consensus at the end but I see that it would be easy to be as confused as when it started. It's not worth it to go in to all the details other than a couple minor things. In some circumstances 30A on a 12 may be legal for a welder and wired one a while back with this. Not all but some with some particulars, I am looking for the word but it eludes me now.
A neutral is a grounded conductor in this single phase system but when it's 120v it's not a neutral it is a grounded conductor, a current carrying conductor. The ground wire is a grounding conductor. The "hot" wires are ungrounded conductors.
As for remarking wires individual conductors 6 or smaller not allowed to be remarked. Whites in cable assemblies marked all the time for 240 use and for switch loops. Allowing it is not an oversight. When used in a switch loop it should supply the switch and use real black and white going to the fixtures.
Sberry
Platinum Member
I try to edit from my phone but this deletes. One i was trying to make less confusing but it went away reharding wiring a 200. Its worth reading the manual and worth noting they size the ground wire. The machine was not intended to be wired with cable, both 6 and 8 use a number 10 ground.
Sberry, I've felt your frustration as I read through all of this. I have tilted at the same windmill a couple times in the past - maybe on here and also probably on another site when I was trying to learn about this too. You initially are told by the experts that it's against code, then when you show them the code that they didn't know about, they have a different reason why it is wrong. Small welders have duty cycles that won't allow them to draw enough prolonged current to overheat that smaller sized circuit to the point of melting and causing a fire. Common sense should tell anyone that when the manufacturer puts a 50A plug on a #10 or #12 cord, that you don't draw a constant 50A. regardless of the fact that power cord wire & insulation will allow a smaller conductor size compared to the branch circuit in the wall, it's not the reason they can use a smaller conductor. if so, that type of insulation would be used everywhere to reduce conductor sizes, because plastic is a lot cheaper than copper.
I'm sure that those in here who are professionals in the field do a great job and are very careful about what they do, but the last time I hired a well known and respected local professional was to wire in a transfer switch. Flash forward a few years later when I got in the box to replace a weak breaker I immediately saw one connection out of the 10 circuits for the switch was just twisted and black taped with no wire nut. been that way for years and probably would have been fine forever, but that doesn't make it right. I even got home just as he was leaving. A true professional could have told me he ran out of wire nuts and had to go get more... heck, i had plenty there that could have been used to remedy the issue in 5 minutes, but they chose to bury the issue and leave. I read and try to learn how to do things correctly partly because it's just my nature, and partly because there's very few trade professionals that I trust explicitly. when what I read conflicts with what the professionals tell me it makes me a little edgy...
I'm sure that those in here who are professionals in the field do a great job and are very careful about what they do, but the last time I hired a well known and respected local professional was to wire in a transfer switch. Flash forward a few years later when I got in the box to replace a weak breaker I immediately saw one connection out of the 10 circuits for the switch was just twisted and black taped with no wire nut. been that way for years and probably would have been fine forever, but that doesn't make it right. I even got home just as he was leaving. A true professional could have told me he ran out of wire nuts and had to go get more... heck, i had plenty there that could have been used to remedy the issue in 5 minutes, but they chose to bury the issue and leave. I read and try to learn how to do things correctly partly because it's just my nature, and partly because there's very few trade professionals that I trust explicitly. when what I read conflicts with what the professionals tell me it makes me a little edgy...
