washouts and who's problem is it?

[deepNdirt]

Hi Folks, here's my problem....every other year I wind up having to re-build the swell that has been used on my property to divert water away from my shop,... When we have rainy seasons the swell gets washed out more like a deep ditch and I've come to realize that it will always be this way... Unless I take further action and recourse to correct it in another manor...................
Let me start back from the beginning 13 years ago when I decide to fill in a large natural dried up creek bed that run across my property, in some places it was 12 ft wide and 8 ft deep, so I was able to push it lots of dead tree's etc, I would layer with a couple feet of dirt then more limbs and pack it all down,... there has been no problem with this area ever opening back up,.. about 3 years after me filling in this dried up creek from property line to property line, a Person buys and build their house 30 ft back side of this creek bed and fills it all in on his property, although leaves a slight swell and pipes out under a gravel drive and all this water from his property comes onto mine and washes out the nicely cut swell that I have made to divert water away,....reason being for me to have to re-work this swell every other year,
................ I have asked some county people about this and they said being it was a natural way for rain water to travel and I change it then I'm pretty much responsible for the consequences,
I explain to them how my neighbor has piped out and directed the water toward my property and they only comented about isn't this the way it was flowing natural before... I told them yes but not so directed to my property thru a culvert pipe... and that I had redirected the dried up creek to still catch the runoff water from that property and it wasn't washing out this way before, it was only after they filled in and re-cut there own swell and then installed the culvert pipe when I started having problems, I confronted my new neighbor about this the first time it happen and he said he would try do something to help, although he only lived there a short time of 8 months before he up and sold it to my now neighbors that really thinks their not responsible at all for this problem. they said it was this way when they bought their property,
and figures its alright
Can any of you relate to this? if so! what would you do?
I mean it does give me seat time on the tractor however its getting tiring fixing this all the time, today makes about 7 times I have fixed this swell back again,

 

[Ken]

Maybe some large drain pipe to devert the water into the ditch you filled in then make the swell to control the water. neighbor is happy and your problems are over. neighbor might even help with 1/2 expences.
And I might be reading the problem different that what I'm seeing.

ken

 

[boxygen]

From what I remember from a college construction law class, diverting water from your property towards another is absolutely legal and there is very little that can be done about it. Therefore, there is nothing that your neighbor is required to do. I'm sure there is more to it then that, but that always stuck in my mind. However, I hope your neighbor tires to be a good neighbor and help you out a little.

 

[deepNdirt]

From what I remember from a college construction law class, diverting water from your property towards another is absolutely legal and there is very little that can be done about it. Therefore, there is nothing that your neighbor is required to do. I'm sure there is more to it then that, but that always stuck in my mind. However, I hope your neighbor tires to be a good neighbor and help you out a little.

Nope I don't think I'm going to get any help because he's already mention selling out and moving away at the end of year,..... when I mentioned using another recourse! what I have in mind is to have a ditch cut down the property line starting at where he has the culvert pipe, although this is going to be quit expensive, a backhoe will have to be used and will need to cut approx 600 ft of ditch,..
but all I would be gaining is about 30ft. more usable property because then I could fill in the swell on my side and simply have the new trench catch all the run off from his culvert and I think by the time the water runs the 600 ft of ditch/trench our property levels back out and actually run back onto their property again, although I think where the problem will come back to bite me , is we both have the same stream running across and through our properties on further back about more 800 ft which silt runoff could be an issue, ................. it wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't wash out all the time, I have see water pouring from this culvert like a waterfall and filling the swell like a river, when all rain has stopped then I'm left with a deep washed out rut that I cannot manage to keep grass growing in,

 

[dcyrilc]

Nope I don't think I'm going to get any help because he's already mention selling out and moving away at the end of year,..... when I mentioned using another recourse! what I have in mind is to have a ditch cut down the property line starting at where he has the culvert pipe, although this is going to be quit expensive, a backhoe will have to be used and will need to cut approx 600 ft of ditch,..
but all I would be gaining is about 30ft. more usable property because then I could fill in the swell on my side and simply have the new trench catch all the run off from his culvert and I think by the time the water runs the 600 ft of ditch/trench our property levels back out and actually run back onto their property again, although I think where the problem will come back to bite me , is we both have the same stream running across and through our properties on further back about more 800 ft which silt runoff could be an issue, ................. it wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't wash out all the time, I have see water pouring from this culvert like a waterfall and filling the swell like a river, when all rain has stopped then I'm left with a deep washed out rut that I cannot manage to keep grass growing in,

What about lining the swell with riprap (4-10" rock) where the water comes out of the culvert?

 

[schmism]

What about lining the swell with riprap (4-10" rock) where the water comes out of the culvert?

+1

you need to armor the bank to avoid washout. For a few $$ a local engineer can come out and look at the site, collect data (water flow rate, speed, slope etc) and can run the calcs to determine what size rock is required.

 

[dcyrilc]

+1

you need to armor the bank to avoid washout. For a few $$ a local engineer can come out and look at the site, collect data (water flow rate, speed, slope etc) and can run the calcs to determine what size rock is required.

I see that around here all the time where a culvert is above ditch level so that the spillage from the end of the pipe doesn't erode the ditch. Some of the ditchs I know of run full bore in a 12" pipe on a good rain.

 

[forgeblast]

With water its always best to over plan. I would have someone come out just to give you best/worse case info.

 

[2manyrocks]

My recollection is that if I alter the natural flow of water on my property causing it to flow onto and damage the neighbor below, I am responsible. If my neighbor made alterations to his property that compounded the problem, then I don't think I am responsible for the additional problems.

If it was all working fine until your former neighbor altered his property, then you may have a basis to discuss this with the new neighbor even though he didn't do it himself. But he obviously doesn't like being responsible for what his predecessor did and so you can see why he'd be reluctant to take responsibility.

 

[turbo36]

Two rules when working with water;
1. Slow it down
2. Spread it out

 

[Phils]

, although this is going to be quit expensive, a backhoe will have to be used and will need to cut approx 600 ft of ditch,..

Yep, buying a backhoe will be expensive but what better reason could you come up with to justify the new toy?

Phil

 

[deepNdirt]

Yep, buying a backhoe will be expensive but what better reason could you come up with to justify the new toy?

Phil

as much as I would like to own a backhoe attachment for my Yanmar I don't think I'd ever have use for it again and would probably just sit around collecting rust I would either rent one or had even though if using a trencher type machine would work? the( Ditch witch ) make a single pass about 3 ft deep and let the flow of water take care of the rest, perhaps the rush of water will open it up larger? I've seen out on job sites where trenches have been dig for under ground cable and good rain come wash it open larger although I have also seen where the rain can wash in mud to fill in the trench back in as well ........................
......................

as to the way the dried up creek bed was! before I done anything ... it ran across all adjoining properties, and when I filled it in I tried being the good neighbor by cutting the swell down my property letting the water flow on into the wooded area instead of dumping it on to my other neighbors property, and of course he was very grateful for this and was able to fill in the dried creek bed on his side and have more usable land,
as I said this worked good to help water the tree's etc, until the development of the adjacent property came along and now causes the washout, all the dirt/mud from the washout nows is down in the bottom of the wooded area of my property so it really has become an environment issue that I don't want too many folks snooping around and seeing, I'm sure I could get people to agree something must be done but my only concern is if it would be opening a can of worms and forcing me to pull out of pocket money that I don't have to get this issue corected......

 

[2manyrocks]

I asked about using a backhoe attachment on my Yanmar 226D and the dealer said he had seen more than one small tractor that broke something when the owner tried to use them with backhoe attachments.

Lay of the land and water flow are difficult to grasp over the internet. That makes it difficult to say what is most helpful to you or would work. So the following are only possible ideas to look at---

My impression is that a trencher will cut a deep but narrow trench, but may not necessarily divert your water flow. If you have a bunch of large rocks in the soil, then that points to a backhoe. But it could be that a little reshaping of the surface with a dozer plus immediate reseeding and strawing might help, too.

If you could post a picture, I'm sure folks would offer more suggestions.

 

[deepNdirt]

If you could post a picture, I'm sure folks would offer more suggestions.

did you say Pictures?

I wish I had thought to have got some pix before I started the filling it of the swell, the first pix shows after although it was a good 2 1/2 deep in some area's, I have still to cleanup the lower part of the washout that Leeds into the woods, but a couple picture there gives an example of whats going on, I have put out large amount of seed and stone although it winds up washing down into the woods, I have got good lawn in the woods now :thumbsup: feeds the deer and other grass eating wildlife,
one pictures shows the culvert which I know doesn't look to appose much of a threat but I assure you when the heavy rain comes this thing can shoot water 3 ft. like a canon, my property starts just to the right of the foliage I had a fence with silt screen but the waters has flatten it and since has covered with mud, the last fall came and covered this area in leaves so cannot really make out,
the last picture is just over the area in which I have not gotten around to fixing yet,

 

[dcyrilc]

I still think that if you line the outflow area with riprap (6-10" fractured rock) it should handle the flow and prevent washouts. You will probably need about a truck load to cover the area needed. Also, you will need to dig down some where the culvert exits the ground so that the top of the rock is below the culvert. Once you are about 15ft down swale from the pipe, the water should have spread out enough for the sod to protect the swale. The riprap should be placed as a flat layer tight together with smaller rock layed in to fill any gaps and then wheel rolled and seeded with grass so that it will root in and help hold everything together. The swale at the outfall of the pipe should start in line with the pipe and make a sweeping turn to direct the water the direction you need it to go.

Hope you can follow what I'm trying to describe.

 

[deepNdirt]

Yes I suppose its going to take more effort than simply re-grading and sewing off seed to get it to stay in grass, ... beside there is no more topsoil left and this clay doesn't start grass seed by itself,
this area used to look like the 3 rd picture all the way thru out the swell. or swale

all the rain runoff was being filtered through the grass and growth before it reached the creek, but now it concerns me that the water can soon be getting silt entering it,