Used Value vs Age

[jyoutz]

This makes me laugh!
Emissions have cost us fuel mileage since day one.
No direct comparrison for tractors but every car, truck and motorcycle I own with emissions has given less mpg than a similar vehicle before.

What? Non of the pre emissions 1970s vehicles I owned got more than 20 mpg. Now we’re driving vehicles with 30-40 mpg (except trucks).

 

[jyoutz]

Not only do they reduce efficiency, but they also create more heat.
Anyone who makes a living around machinery or vehicles knows those hot DPFs, Catalytic Converters, etc create equipment life-shortening heat which creates all kinds of issues, from the possibility of wild fires, to discomfort of operation, requiring more air conditioning in cabs to shortening of component life, requiring more parts and services, which means more parts to be made in factories, which means increased pollution. More service truck trips from the dealer to the farm, mine, etc means more air pollution from service truck exhausts. Also there’s a human component. More service truck trips means more possibilities of death or injury in vehicular accidents or service persons injured servicing pollution equipment.
People in colleges just don’t understand the impact of all this pollution stuff they force on us. It’s not thought through completely.

I’m sure that you’re old enough that you remember all of the terrible pollution, smog, and grey skies with acid rain that we experienced in the 1970s. Those conditions are rare today thank to air quality regulations that were advocated by the Nixon administration. The same with water quality. I wouldn’t want to go back to those days.

 

[jyoutz]

So yes, some components last longer, but the topic you introduced is efficiency in equipment (not vehicles) so I’m having a bit of trouble following.
But if we are veering over into cars and equipment lasting longer, Id venture to say the older equipment was built heavier and stronger than the newer plastic stuff. But the plastic doesn’t rust.
Look at older (like 20-50 year old) tractors. They were built when engineers were in charge.
Seen more than my share of million mile Chevy 350 engines and million mile 5.9L Cummins diesels. Anti rust has improved with the introduction of aluminum and plastic. Hardly hi-tech breakthroughs.
Now it’s bean counters and enviromentalists in charge of cars and equipment

I sure don’t remember any of those old 70-80s Chevy 350s going one million miles. I do know of several 1 million miles 5.9 Cummins. My recollection of the old 350 Chevy gassers was they were good for about 150k before rebuilding and pretty much unsellable after 100k miles. I owned 2 of those. I remember doing regular tuneups every 20k miles, plugs, points, condensers, wires, timing. And they would run good for awhile before needing another tune-up. And who can forget those damn carburetors and the rebuilding kits. Drum brakes? Oh yeah, an exciting ride in the mountains if you neglected the regular manual adjustments. I’ll take a modern vehicle any day. I spent a lot of wrenching time on those old vehicles.

 

[jyoutz]

Nuclear is a great option power wise, but the issue is the time it takes to create a viable plant. No one wants to do it because it is way more expensive than currently available NG plants. The ROI is bad. That said, perhaps taxpayers should fund it...but I really hate letting the government manage anything. They just suck at it.

Seems like the private electric utilities in Texas also kinda suck at building facilities that can handle cold weather.

 

[jyoutz]

Cop out?

Ok, so in your world, we manufacture widgets under strict pollution guidelines, at a much more costly rate.
Meanwhile China, India, Mexico produce same widgets without strict pollution guidelines at a much cheaper rate.

Now seriously, how long do you think we can compete for consumers worldwide or domestically if our widgets are the same widgets, but cost more?

Any idea what that will do to our manufacturing sector?

Labor costs including benefits affects US product competitiveness much more than environmental regulations. This is evident even in manufacturing of products not affected by environmental regulations. I wear Whites boots for work. They are 100% US made and they cost $500/pair due to the hand labor involved and wages for skilled workers. I also own some Allen Edmonds dress shoes made in Wisconsin at $400/pair. A nice wool cruiser jacket made by Filson in Seattle is $500. None of the manufacturers have facilities that involve pollution regulations, but these products can’t compete with mass manufacturers in Asia or Mexico at much cheaper labor costs. Also, I visited a Ford production plant in Chihuahua Mexico three years ago. The people conducting the tour were proud to explain that this modern plant exceeded the environmental standards of some of their US plants.

 

[5030]

Candidly, I don't much care one way or another currently because I have no intention of selling either of my M9's, but when I do, will be nice to see them bring as much as possible and the way the market is progressing, they are retaining the value and increasing as the currency is worth less, or should I say worthless.

 

[IndyJay]

Except we aren’t choking the economy. Solar, wind and natural gas energy is driving down electricity costs.

Wind energy is a losing proposition when you take away the subsidies. Amazing how "environmentalists" support wind mills considering how many eagles and other birds are killed. If it was a coal plant taking out so many large birds they would be screaming to shut them down... oh, wait.

 

[IndyJay]

What? Non of the pre emissions 1970s vehicles I owned got more than 20 mpg. Now we’re driving vehicles with 30-40 mpg (except trucks).

Do you think maybe electronic fuel injection and computer controls may have helped with that?

 

[jyoutz]

Do you think maybe electronic fuel injection and computer controls may have helped with that?

Yes, but these are all a system that works together.

 

[jyoutz]

Wind energy is a losing proposition when you take away the subsidies. Amazing how "environmentalists" support wind mills considering how many eagles and other birds are killed. If it was a coal plant taking out so many large birds they would be screaming to shut them down... oh, wait.

The subsidies are largely gone for wind. In my region wind farms are everywhere in the eastern part of my state, and Texas is covered with them. We also have huge solar farms and all coal plants have either been closed, converted, or scheduled for conversion to natural gas. Natural gas , wind and solar together are far cheaper than coal in 2022. Our largest power company says that when they convert the last coal plant in the state to natural gas in 2023, they will save $10m per year in costs.

 

[blehmann]

Gas compression plants went down to a large degree because the compressors had been converted to electric motors. When the electricity goes down, so does the gas compression. In the old days the compressors were driven by natural gas fueled engines.

 

[OzarkChris]

Labor costs including benefits affects US product competitiveness much more than environmental regulations. This is evident even in manufacturing of products not affected by environmental regulations. I wear Whites boots for work. They are 100% US made and they cost $500/pair due to the hand labor involved and wages for skilled workers. I also own some Allen Edmonds dress shoes made in Wisconsin at $400/pair. A nice wool cruiser jacket made by Filson in Seattle is $500. None of the manufacturers have facilities that involve pollution regulations, but these products can’t compete with mass manufacturers in Asia or Mexico at much cheaper labor costs. Also, I visited a Ford production plant in Chihuahua Mexico three years ago. The people conducting the tour were proud to explain that this modern plant exceeded the environmental standards of some of their US plants.

First off, I really don't care about your $2500 wardrobe (my boots sure wouldn't be white after one day of work), but I digress.

The biggest issue I have with environmentalist (like you I'm guessing after your posts) is the lack of "environmental awareness" y'all have when it comes to these new fangled "green" energies. Several posts here asked questions that were not answered or were po-poo'd as something that shouldn't be asked.

Browse through a couple (#'s 130, 134, 202, 203, 241 & 243) that are relevant to your previous posts and then answer some of the questions that y'all won't or deflect on e.g. solar toxicity, bird chopping, nuclear etc. I am not a university lounge lizard but I do have a bit of knowledge when it comes to research and have seen way too much research being thrown around that when you really look at it, is flawed, is peer reviewed by known activist organizations, has "f" values that would have been laughed at and mocked by statistics professors when I was in school, etc.

 

[jyoutz]

First off, I really don't care about your $2500 wardrobe (my boots sure wouldn't be white after one day of work), but I digress.

The biggest issue I have with environmentalist (like you I'm guessing after your posts) is the lack of "environmental awareness" y'all have when it comes to these new fangled "green" energies. Several posts here asked questions that were not answered or were po-poo'd as something that shouldn't be asked.

Browse through a couple (#'s 130, 134, 202, 203, 241 & 243) that are relevant to your previous posts and then answer some of the questions that y'all won't or deflect on e.g. solar toxicity, bird chopping, nuclear etc. I am not a university lounge lizard but I do have a bit of knowledge when it comes to research and have seen way too much research being thrown around that when you really look at it, is flawed, is peer reviewed by known activist organizations, has "f" values that would have been laughed at and mocked by statistics professors when I was in school, etc.

I am a professional forester, so by definition I am a conservationist. I have stated my thoughts on this topic and have no desire to engage in a tit for tat discussion on this topic. Grind your axe elsewhere.

 

[jyoutz]

Gas compression plants went down to a large degree because the compressors had been converted to electric motors. When the electricity goes down, so does the gas compression. In the old days the compressors were driven by natural gas fueled engines.

Why doesn’t the power grid go down in other states when it’s cold outside? Texas didn’t winterize their systems, simple as that.

 

[blehmann]

Why doesn’t the power grid go down in other states when it’s cold outside? Texas didn’t winterize their systems, simple as that.

It isn't that simple. You are correct that the system wasn't winterized. You are leaving out the part about a higher than normal number of conventional power plants being off-line for repair, (how dumb is that?), natural gas going offline as a direct result of electric failures, and wind and solar going offline for several days. The main reason that power doesn't go off in other states is because most of them are tied in with a huge grid that should always have excess power to shuffle around. ERCOT didn't have that option. Maybe it is time to do away with ERCOT and spread the risk like the rest of the country.

 

[bvanek]

The subsidies are largely gone for wind. In my region wind farms are everywhere in the eastern part of my state, and Texas is covered with them. We also have huge solar farms and all coal plants have either been closed, converted, or scheduled for conversion to natural gas. Natural gas , wind and solar together are far cheaper than coal in 2022. Our largest power company says that when they convert the last coal plant in the state to natural gas in 2023, they will save $10m per year in costs.

The stated goals of subsidies (supposedly) were to stimulate demand for wind and solar technology in the hope that their high cost would decline. As we see today that is no longer viable as the technology has plateaued and therefore these larger companies can enter the market as is (but these large companies are diverse in other sources so they eliminate competition and thus control pricing to the consumer. So now they can settle in and reap their harvest at the expense of the ratepayers.... sound familiar?

I live in the Northwest. After WWII the federal government went headlong into producing and promoting cheap hydroelectric power throughout the nation. It was particularly rewarding in states (like mine) that had this abundant renewable natural resource.....but what happened? Corporate America took over, much like what might be happening in your area with wind and solar. Costs started soaring because of two major factors; They found out they could sell (initially surplus electricity) to California at a 50% higher rate and # 2 the environmentalists started going after the smaller hydro plants for the usual reasons and all of a sudden supply and demand became the front-runner for profitability.

So in your area maybe wind and solar can be competitive? But lets be clear wind and solar do not provide the same value to the grid as conventional electricity sources. In addition to not operating on demand (a subsidiary but tangible issue with power grids going down.), both wind and solar provide little of capacity value that is needed to maintain long-term reliability to the grid. Instead they rely on other electricity generators (that dreaded fossil fuel, natural gas in your case),to provide the services they cannot.....thus imposing those costs on other generators and the structure of the grid itself. The wind and solar facilities do not pay theses costs, ratepayers do. The Texas heat wave of 2019 provides a good example of how renewables can distort electricity grid operations.

So my simple reference is aimed at the very idea of replacing fossil fuels and subsequently blowing up our economy in the process. It's not "about time" for fossil fuels to be eliminated when you don't have replacements with the infrastructure to back it up. Political agendas always put the cart before the horse and ignorantly use this to disingenuously promote man as the culprit to changing climates. ........hydroelectric power invested in it's infrastructure without compromising the welfare of it's citizens...why? because we had fossil fuels in place to hold us over. Then we were able to use cheap hydroelectric power to vault into the era of opportunity and prosperity for any citizen who was willing to participate.

So you promote wind and solar....and who do you think will profit from that? Well the bottom line points to China both indirectly (from big tech) and directly. Solar panels made in China, wind turbans made mostly from parts and steel alloys made in China. Batteries made in China. Rare earth minerals (components of solar cells and batteries) ...all from China or sourced from Chinese investments in many third world countries...and if China takes Taiwan, computer chips..China will control our infrastructure and everything that runs them..and if they wish, because we have no protection against securing our electric grids and computers that run almost everything now, they could shut us down with a single EMP rocket. Incidentally this phony Biden "infrastructure bill' has no provision to take care of this.....and it is not that costly to permanently idiot proof this serious threat to our security.

America citizens will pay dearly if this nonsense isn't thwarted.


So one other comment to you: You have some one-sided pot shots at particular posts which are opposite views....didn't do any research so can't comment .....You seem adamant about promoting wind and solar and have pushed back rather religiously, to dominate the thread? It leads one to believe that you might be vested in something? Who do you work for? I kinda don't think you are a farmer

 

[OzarkChris]

I am a professional forester, so by definition I am a conservationist. I have stated my thoughts on this topic and have no desire to engage in a tit for tat discussion on this topic. Grind your axe elsewhere.

Not grinding an axe, I'm glad that you still have a job, city, county after the spotted white owl fiasco - I know many who don't. But you didn't the questions. How do you justify the toxic garbage from the solar industries? How do you justify the mass killing of our national bird - the one if I "accidentally" kill one of have huge fines & jail. Etc etc

 

[jyoutz]

Not grinding an axe, I'm glad that you still have a job, city, county after the spotted white owl fiasco - I know many who don't. But you didn't the questions. How do you justify the toxic garbage from the solar industries? How do you justify the mass killing of our national bird - the one if I "accidentally" kill one of have huge fines & jail. Etc etc

Wind farms are distributed throughout the western US. I have no clue about how many birds are killed. I do know that wind farms are a significant percentage of the western power grid and that isn’t going to change. Solar manufacturers in the US have to deal with toxic manufacturing waste just like all other industries in the US. Nothing different. Same clean air and water acts that all manufacturers must comply with. The spotted owl situation (Mexican and Northern) has been dealt with. We still have most of the forested acres to manage and the protected owl habitats really are a minor portion of the landscape. For example, in my area, 15% of pine/oak forest must be managed for Mexican Spotted owl habitat, leaving 85% of the acres that can be managed for other priorities. I’m stating the current situation without my personal preferences; it is what it is. We are all entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts.

 

[bvanek]

It’s time that we spent money improving our own country. Will there be some fraud and waste? Of course. That goes with any large expenditures. But our country is in sad need of infrastructure remodeling. This is especially evident when you travel to Europe and see how shabby US roads, airports, and other infrastructure is compared to other first world countries.

yes there will be abundant fraud and waste. There is plenty of historical evidence that fraud, waste, mismanagement, and political hacking are the norm. The evidence is presented in your assessment of our roads, airports, bridges, etc. as past political porking/hacking/corporate featherbedding has left us in dire straits on basic infrastructure. This will continue as long as accountability gets sidelined and political pandering to special interests persists.

Also I'm sure each State will have certain pet projects often allocated to to bail out prior mismanagement and incompetence. It's a safe bet that Blue states will veer towards woke/green new deal/white privilege stuff while their bridges and roads continue to be in disarray and the cost to fix them keeps rising year by neglected year. This will be federal money paid for by all American taxpayers and thus people in South Dakota will have to help pay for a fairyland high speed rail in California. A better use would be to invest in desalination plants to produce the water they are in short supply of.

Here's a good example of how we spend/waste money on infrastructure...check out acres of steel left to rust away because a democratic Congress has decided to toss taxpayers money aside for nothing more than ideological garbage of no border.
Yes there will be waste.....but I'd venture to guess that red states won't waste theirs....(but they won't get much because they don't holler and whine and luckily they are ran well enough that they don't need it)....you see what I'm saying here)
bottom line;Fix and repair the old before you pork in a bunch of "green new deal" new. I don't take issue with environmental projects, but since this will be /administered/prioritized by bureaucratic loonies I can't say that this money will be fully advocated to meaningful infrastructure.

 

[jyoutz]

yes there will be abundant fraud and waste. There is plenty of historical evidence that fraud, waste, mismanagement, and political hacking are the norm. The evidence is presented in your assessment of our roads, airports, bridges, etc. as past political porking/hacking/corporate featherbedding has left us in dire straits on basic infrastructure. This will continue as long as accountability gets sidelined and political pandering to special interests persists.

Also I'm sure each State will have certain pet projects often allocated to to bail out prior mismanagement and incompetence. It's a safe bet that Blue states will veer towards woke/green new deal/white privilege stuff while their bridges and roads continue to be in disarray and the cost to fix them keeps rising year by neglected year. This will be federal money paid for by all American taxpayers and thus people in South Dakota will have to help pay for a fairyland high speed rail in California. A better use would be to invest in desalination plants to produce the water they are in short supply of.

Here's a good example of how we spend/waste money on infrastructure...check out acres of steel left to rust away because a democratic Congress has decided to toss taxpayers money aside for nothing more than ideological garbage of no border.
Yes there will be waste.....but I'd venture to guess that red states won't waste theirs....(but they won't get much because they don't holler and whine and luckily they are ran well enough that they don't need it)....you see what I'm saying here)
bottom line;Fix and repair the old before you pork in a bunch of "green new deal" new. I don't take issue with environmental projects, but since this will be /administered/prioritized by bureaucratic loonies I can't say that this money will be fully advocated to meaningful infrastructure.

We in the Forest Service are getting billions to do forest restoration projects to reduce severe wildfires. Most will go to western and southern states because that is where the wildfires are most severe. It’s not a red/blue state issue; America has needs everywhere. Especially highways, bridges, ports and communications. If you want some actual real information about the border, PM me. I have lived my entire life in border states and my career is in land management. It’s sad how politicians have misrepresented the situation. And those hunks of steel have been rusting away for the past 20 years because politicians sold a ridiculous solution to an issue they are gutless to address with real solutions.