update on loader cracks

[IslandTractor]

Looks like fluid levels are a bit low too.

 

[rback33]

You folks just don't have any idea of what cracks are really like... Dusty

I must admit with that title on the pic I was terrified to look. Beach and Cracks never go well together. My two fears were "how big" and "Male or female"....

Thank you for not scarring me for life.

 

[Steverino]

Steverino,

Typically when a manufacturer finds a problem such as the Kioti Loader Problem as you guys call it they will put it into two classifications. Existing and New. The existing ones are out there, can't do much about them. The most important is New and that is where they will work first. They want to stop any more loaders going out there as fast as they can. The fix for the new will also help them in determining the fix for the existing ones. Now for your loader the fix may be totally different. I would just hang in there, they should have a fix soon.

murph

Thank you Murph for your thoughtful reply, it is not that I am beyond reason it is that Kioti has simply worn out my patience. If Kioti was even a little more forthcoming with communication regarding any official acknowledgement of the fix and when we might receive it, I could perhaps be persuaded to retract my POed. This loader issue however has been a well-publicized “Cause Celebre” here on TBN for almost a year now starting with the Highbeam butcher job. Those of us of us with the cracked loaders now find we are not very important to Kioti as they already have our money even if they got it by providing us with a defective product. So from here on out my personal recommendation for anyone interested in the loader or backhoe for a Kioti tractor would be too look to Woods or another manufacture who’s livelihood depends upon the sale and reputation of those items alone, and do not see tractor sales as their bead and butter issue. As far as the Tractor is concerned, I still have no major complaints so far, and I still like it very much, and for the value I would consider it again, but I would not spend almost as much as I did for the tractor on attachments from Kioti only to be left twisting in the wind. So as far as I am concerned, Kioti has lost me as a customer in that regard. Still POed!

 

[Highbeam]

I have just purchased a new kL120 loader and it looks different than the pictures I have seen of the loader. The cross member is tubular so you can see the hollow tube. I did not see this in the pictures.

Mr Hammock, since the cross member is tubular can you please tell us if there are any hydraulic hoses routed inside the cross member? A typical loader crossmember from other brands has the hydraulic lines made of metal and attached to the outside of the cross member to connect the right and left cylinders. Is this how yours is?

Of course pictures would be excellent but at this point I am on the edge of my seat for anything. Thanks.

 

[hammock_kioti]

Here are some pics of th new loader. The tube has no hoses. They put a plate over the tube to cover the hoses. See Pics. Maybe another hint is that the model is KL120B?

 

[IslandTractor]

Fascinating. Looks like they put a support tube INSIDE the existing cross piece. The hydraulics still go through the cross piece but there is now a separate hidden torque tube as well. It looks pretty well secured on the outside arms of the loader too. Interesting design solution.

Now the big question will be how will they make the repairs to existing loaders? I suppose you could retrofit a tube like on the new style but that seems like it would be a lot more highly skilled fabrication/welding work and not the sort of thing you'd just ask a dealer to do.

I wonder if we can convince Mr. Hammond to remove the access plate from the cross piece and take a photo or two to see what reinforcement if any has been added to the access opening corners.

 

[Dargo]

I wonder if we can convince Mr. Hammond to remove the access plate from the cross piece and take a photo or two to see what reinforcement if any has been added to the access opening corners.

Now, I'm just looking at the pictures, but it appears like a very common design on other tractors. The torque tube is a common, but effective, method of keeping loader arms together. As with most others, it appears as if there are two bolts that attach the metal plate to the top of the tube to protect the hoses going from one side to the other. That seems to be where Kioti departs from the norm on this design; others use metal hydraulic lines that cross at the torque tube under a metal protection cover. I don't think the top cover provides any strength and isn't attached on either side. It doesn't need to be with the properly secured torque tube through the loader arms.

Honestly, from the metal working and fabrication aspect, I don't see an easy way to make this change to existing loaders. It would require removing the existing hydraulic lines, cutting the existing support out. Using a plasma cutter to cut a round hole in each loader arm, inserting a heavy wall pipe through the new location, plating the outside of the loader arms to take the torque and pressures, and welding the new torque tube to the loader arms, and then welding the strengthening plating on the outside of the loader arms to the new torque tube and securely to the outside of the loader arms. Then re-route the hydraulic lines on top of the torque tube and adding the cover plate over them for protection.

Knowing how much work that would take and what I'd charge for such a job, I don't see it as being cost effective for Kioti to do that. Certainly they will do something, I obviously just don't know what.

 

[gravel13]

I agree with Dargo, it definitely doesn't look like that design will be in kit form for those of us with cracked loaders. It does look like a great design for the KL120, does anyone have pics of a new KL130 loader?

 

[gamble77]

The KL130B's do not have that torque tube running through them. To me the fix looks like a complete bolt on piece that just adds strength to that area. It is a pretty impressive looking piece. Sorry, wish I could take some pics!!

 

[IslandTractor]

I agree with Dargo's analysis too. That is why I didn't think that dealers could make that sort of repair. I'd like to see what the new loader style does with the inspection hatch area. Just wondering if they left that alone (having added the structural tube for strength they may not need to do anything else) or if there is a hint about what the retrofit kit for the older loaders might be.

 

[Steverino]

I don't think we have to worry about a retro-fix kit for our loaders. I expect to receive my new frame in the mail any day, perhaps on X-mass eve. Well at least what I’m going to ask the Mall Santa for, no they are not out already, at least not around here, but when they do appear...

 

[Highbeam]

I will have to side with Dargo, it looks to me like a traditional style loader such as the woods or a Kubota where the torque tube is doing the work and then Kioti boted a big honking cover over the crossover hydro lines. The cover is similar in shape to the old crossmember but does not look to be attached, so the removable cover would be a full width piece of metal. It also appears that the loader arms have some additional beef added in the torque tube area.

The KL120B looks to be a nice improvement. A casual eye might not notice the improvement at all since the approximate shape is maintained from the KL120 which would be a good PR move. As to an upgrade kit to accomplish this - I do not think that will happen. Way too hard.

I'm anxious to see the 130b but the 120b is indication that Kioti is fixing.

 

[BTI]

Gamble77 said "The KL130B's do not have that torque tube running through them. To me the fix looks like a complete bolt on piece that just adds strength to that area. It is a pretty impressive looking piece."

I will add that I would imagine that is the "fix" for the cracked loaders.
It would be way to expensive to replace all of those loaders.
There still has not been what could be called a "failure".
Not saying it doesn't need fixing, just saying that all loaders are still functioning like they are supposed to.

BTI

 

[Dusty]

..........It would be way to expensive to replace all of those loaders.
There still has not been what could be called a "failure".
Not saying it doesn't need fixing, just saying that all loaders are still functioning like they are supposed to.

BTI

The cost of one injury lawsuit would far outweigh the cost of replacing all the loaders. Many times the manufacturer will weigh the cost of replacement vs. the cost of a few judgments for injury. Once case that comes to mine is the penny pinching done by Ford Motor with the Pinto fuel tanks. There the cost savings outweighed the cost of the possible financial cost at some later date, and Ford decided to run the risk. In the end, it didn't work out that way. How any manufacturer looks at defects is what is the liability vs. what is the present day costs. It also has to do with the financial condition of the companies involved. If the company that is ultimately liable, can't afford to pay for the repair or replacement, they will take a "wait and see" attitude, and if it gets too expensive, they will file bankruptcy. I don't know all the particulars on this defect nor do I know the company involved, so these are general comments on how things work in general when defects arise. There is a whole contingent of lawyers that make their entire living on product liability lawsuits today, and they are very quick to gather up a group of people to move these lawsuits to class action suits in Federal court, where the rules are different than in state courts.
How many units are involved and the total cost of replacement of the defective parts is going to be the determining factor. If they do repairs, then they are still on the hook for damages if an injury happens, along with the selling dealer and the person that did the repair. I know that my local welding shop will no longer do any welding on any automobile or truck, because of the insurance issue. They won't even weld up a crack in a snow plow. In todays litigious world, times have changed, and not for the better.
Dusty

 

[HODAK]

Not sure where injury would result. I don't want someone to show me or tell me how either. When I use my loader, I'm moving rather slowly and there isn't anyone near. But, I suppose you're right about the lawsuit thing - that is the way we live today and it's also reflected in the cost of just about everything.

 

[IslandTractor]

I think the only relevant "injury" is that done to Kioti's reputation if they don't come up with an appropriate fix for the cracked loaders. I assume if one of the dealer TBN members had heard anything about the repair (not the new loader style) that they would have said something in this thread by now. I am beginning to wonder if what the customer service rep I spoke to in late September was referring to was the new loader style rather than the repair kit. I am still surprised by the unbelievable "sound of silence" from Kioti on this cracked loader matter. If they have had time to completely redesign the loader and already have product to the dealers, you'd think they could have at least indicated what they are going to offer for a repair program on the KL120/130s that are still out there.

How about one of you dealers making a call to corporate and finding out what the story is on cracked loader repairs?

 

[roller]

Still a ghostly silence on this subject I see........

 

[Highbeam]

Yes- ghostly. We all know the situation and we all know how this issue can blow up into a flame war. I for one am doing my best to be patient. I check daily to look for news on this site.

 

[Dodgeram]

How about one of you dealers making a call to corporate and finding out what the story is on cracked loader repairs?

I can't believe I'm gonna respond to this, but why-oh-why would one of the dealers make a call?

If I remember correctly, see http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kioti-owning-operating/81971-why-wont-you-help-kioti.html , the last time a dealer tried to help, they ended up getting chastised.

Come to think of it, a lot of the dealers left this site around that time.

Oh well, just an observation.

 

[JerryG]

Come to think of it, a lot of the dealers left this site around that time.

The only dealer that I remember leaving was the young lady. (I can't remember her name.) Did more dealers leave? Who?