UFO's... What do you think?

[ovrszd]

Oh great. First the "late last night" thread gets locked because it took a wrong turn. Now here goes this thread.......

I was enjoying both. :ashamed:

 

[bumperm]

As dave1949 notes, as a species we tend toward aggression, yet at the same time we are social beings. When you think about it, there are survival benefits in both traits that would bring them to the fore in natural selection. Where two tribes lived in enough close proximity so as to compete for resources, the more aggressive and/or intelligent group would "displace" the meeker one. We see this in much of nature where strength and aggressiveness is rewarded in breeding opportunities.

Being social has obvious advantages too, while living in groups offers protection, diversification of talents, a multiplication of knowledge and more, living in groups can conflict with aggressive behavior. And so, society has leaders, rules, etc.

It seems unlikely any successful, advanced civilization would be all that much different.

 

[ovrszd]

It seems unlikely any successful, advanced civilization would be all that much different.

I agree.

 

[dave1949]

You gotta stretch your thinking a bit. The warfare technology that has been developed for killing has created space travel technology that can be used for guidance systems For example, our government will never admit it, but I'm sure we have laser technology that can be used to destroy inter-continental missiles from satellite based lasers. Wouldn't that technology, albeit it used for other things, be useful in space travel?? We would have never perfected it without having the need for it during wartime. Again, peaceful creatures tend to be lazy creatures.

I think this is worth fighting over. :laughing:

That's a pretty broad conclusion. It's true that we are most energized by threats to our well being, but then so is every other creature on earth that has nervous system. When you pick up an earthworm, it wriggles vigorously. When we are threatened we cock a fist, a hammer, build a bomb, etc. There is a biological response by the worm and by us, we are just more capable and psychologically prepared to be deadly.

If you look at a science time-line of significant achievements and over-lay that with a significant war and conquest time-line, what do you think it would look like? How much time in the past thousand years has been free of war, conquest, political and religious upheavals and power struggles, etc.? Even if you constrained the data to only a eurocentric view, ignoring the other members of our species, there aren't many periods of time in history that are free of strife.

 

[rekees4300]

You gotta stretch your thinking a bit.

I don't disagree that some war technology can be applied to space travel. My only point is that the resources used for war could have been better used for space travel. Imagine how far we could have come by now if NASA had been around for a few thousand years. Likely we could have been beyond the solar system.

 

[bumperm]

I don't disagree that some war technology can be applied to space travel. My only point is that the resources used for war could have been better used for space travel. Imagine how far we could have come by now if NASA had been around for a few thousand years. Likely we could have been beyond the solar system.

But without aggression and war, would we all not be picking berries and sitting around a campfire singing kum ba yah? The drive to survive is interwoven with aggression and protection. It has been a prime mover in the growth of knowledge and technology.

I'm not defending aggression, in fact I am more interested in defending myself and family *from* aggression. It's interesting that the technology and knowledge to do both is basically the same.

 

[MossRoad]

But without aggression and war, would we all not be picking berries and sitting around a campfire singing kum ba yah? ....

Hey, that guy has better berries and more fire than me.....

 

[Egon]

Hey, that guy has better berries and more fire than me.....

I'll let you use my Firehill Moss. It's a great spot from which to observe the night heavens. And then the Owl Hoots!

 

[dave1949]

But without aggression and war, would we all not be picking berries and sitting around a campfire singing kum ba yah? The drive to survive is interwoven with aggression and protection. It has been a prime mover in the growth of knowledge and technology.

I'm not defending aggression, in fact I am more interested in defending myself and family *from* aggression. It's interesting that the technology and knowledge to do both is basically the same.

What's wrong with eating berries and singing by the campfire? You say that almost as if there is something fundamentally wrong with that. Maybe that's who we are but I hate to think our lives are not complete without some bloodshed.

I don't think we are as advanced as we may think we are. A truly intelligent and developed species which holds near absolute mastery over the planets resources would transcend the basic biological imperatives that less capable species are slaves to. We've been around in various **** iterations (sapiens, neanderthal, denisova, habilis, etc.) for over two million years and we are still stealing women and fighting over food, natural resources and territory. Yeah, we be real smart. :laughing:

If we led a truly peaceful existence and our collective actions were directed toward maintaining that existence:
1) Our planet would be safe from us. Our extinction would be due to natural cataclysmic events that will occur no matter how peaceful or warlike we live. Being safe from "us" would preclude the misery of over population, always looking for more or better resources as if they are infinite.
2) We would have less need to expand to other planets because we need not flee the mess we are making of this one. Fleeing this planet is basically running away from yourself, good luck. You cannot jump over your own shadow.

 

[/pine]

I don't think we are as advanced as we may think we are.

We still cook meat on open flames and chew it off the bone...