Trying to decide... to purchase or plant alfalfa/orchard grass hay for horses

[rectifier]

If you want to use it on your own operation, and be able to hay it or graze it, look into replacing the alfalfa with cicer milkvetch. I honestly don't have a clue if it suits your climate, but it certainly does well in ours.

It's a non-bloat legume. We planted a 12ac test patch 3 years ago that is by far our top producing hayfield. This year we are really impressed as we've not seen rain since spring runoff and baled 2.5t/ac while other fields are coming with only half a ton or less per acre. We never fertilize hay here by the way. We planted a whole quarter of hilly cropland down to cicer/brome/fescue this year and plan to use it mostly for fall and winter pasture.

It is also very persistent, stockpiles well, and can be grazed any time of year except for spring. For your needs you can take a cut and graze the regrowth in the fall. Or summer graze, pull the stock out and cut late. Very forgiving stuff.

Only real issue is it is a hard seed and can take a few years to germinate. The quarter we planted this year has about 1 plant/acre up, since we never saw rain since we planted it. Also you should have a crimper as it takes a long time to dry if swathed.

 

[Dadnatron]

I met with the local guy, my County Extension agent put me in touch with. Man... what a talker. But seemed very knowledgeable.

A few things he stated which were out of the ordinary, and I'd like your opinion on.

1. Seed heavy. His recommendation is 25lbs/ac. Local Univ rec 15-18
2. Seed in the fall between 8/15 and 9/15. Since we can have wet springs, he believes it insures the seed is in the ground when you can't/shouldn't get in the field.
3. Recommended putting in 10ac every year or so, to have various stages of production efficiency given crop age.
4. Perhaps think about putting half of the crop into just grass for grass hay.

Things I've thought about since I spoke with him.

5. What is the real world utility of RoundUp Ready alfalfa? The cost of seed is high, and I don't know the real world weed pressure for these fields in an alfalfa stand. Also, if I used it, I couldn't mix grass. I don't know about this, but thought I'd ask.

6. Till or NO-till. Currently I have annual rye which is turning brown. We mowed it twice this year. I put it in just as a summer cover crop to hold erosion and weeds down. My fields are 'relatively smooth' at typical 3-5mph. I don't know whether it is worth tilling this vs no-till drilling it. He leaned towards tilling it. What are the benefits and how would you go about it?

 

[rectifier]

These are just my opinions, as I'm in a totally different climate from you.

1. That is a super heavy rate to us on the Canadian prairie. Holy crap. We seed 8-10lbs.

2. Seeding in the fall is the way to go. If it germinates in the fall it will have a jump on the weeds. If it germinates in the spring it will have a fair start. Either way it will be up before you could get in the field.

3. Entirely depends on your operation

4. I prefer a good multipurpose blend but I am a shepherd, not a horseman. Lasts longer, more tonnage, less risk of bloat if animals get into it (and they will). Grass by itself will need nitrogen applied regularly. Grass with legumes will not (or at least we get away without it, water being our limiting factor)

5. RR alfalfa is BANNED here due to invasive potential. So I can't speak to its utility. However I can pretty much guarantee it will establish well and clean, and leave a stand of 100% alfalfa (and RR weeds... if you have a problem with them there may be no point). The utility of 100% alfalfa is limited as well. Personally I wouldn't do it. Once alfalfa takes off, it will choke out the majority of problem weeds on its own. So will rhizomatous grasses like smooth brome. Vetch even more so, it even chokes out Canada thistle in a year or two.

6. Till or no till depends on what you are planting with and what you are planting into. We lean toward no-till or minimum tillage and use an old set of 9350 box drills. Hay needs to be planted super shallow so we tend to only make a few harrow passes to loosen the soil a bit, control trash, and rip up the earliest weeds. If I till, the drills will overpenetrate. However if it is ultra trashy, compacted, or rough you will need to till. Especially if you do till, remember to PICK AS MANY ROCKS AS YOU CAN while the soil is bare. If you don't have a rock picker, rent one, or buy a cheap one at an auction and resell it. Then roll the land the next spring. It will pay dividends in damaged sickle sections and pickup teeth.

 

[DJ54]

Speaking from personal experience, mine, and I know a lot of other peoples horses really don't care for Orchard grass. The largest percentage of my mixed hay is Rye grass. The rest is Alfalfa, red clover, and Tuuka Timothy. The Tuuka Timothy is a earlier producer over the old stand by Climax. It also out produces the Climax. But, you'll more than likely get the bulk of it on first cutting, as it is a cool weather grass.

A lot depends on what you do with your horses, as far as the content. Mine are just pleasure horses, and trail ridden, so I don't want a high protein hay to make them, as mentioned..., hot. Just a good mixed hay, to balance things out.

You might want to check with the extension agent, and see if they offer a no-till drill to rent. Here, you can rent an approx. 8' one for $10-$12 per acre. The ones here have 2 different seed boxes, saving multiple passes. If you field is mowed down fairly tight, it will probably help on cleanup when you're done. A buddy of mine just rented one from the local extension office, and did not heed my warning of mowing down a previous stand of Cereal Rye before going in. The next day he spent 3 hours just cutting Rye that had wrapped itself around all of the cutting disc shafts. Sometimes you gots to pee on the electric fence yourself, to learn something...

 

[Dadnatron]

DJ

Our horses are thoroughbreds. We raise and race them. Only one of the group is someone to ride, as he was a horse we raised, sold, and claimed back at the end of his career. My wife rides him. I'm not too worried about making them 'hot' but I can understand your point and it is well taken.

I have a no-till drill available through my extension office. I used it on this place to put in the annual rye this spring.

Currently, I have about 8" rye stubble which can be mowed shorter. We haven't sprayed it, but over the last couple weeks, it has died. I don't know whether this is just what happens to Annual Rye or whether it was because we mowed it twice in about 3wks. But it doesn't really matter, as we would be preparing to burn everything off in the next week or so anyway. (depending on whether I get a sprayer or just hire it out.)

I have a 10' disc and a 15' cultimulcher, that I just purchased at auction. I've never used one before, but it seems as thought it would be good in seedbed prep. I am really trying to do the best job I can do to get a good stand of alfalfa and grass. Given what has been said by a few others and on this thread, I think I will stay away from RUR alfalfa. I'll stick with the plan to mix in orchard grass. I think my preference would be to till everything down as smooth as possible and plant with a Brillion type seeder rather than no-till. But I don't know... I know that the few skips that I had with the drill resulted in a long strip of weeds, so I really understand how important the density of intended plants can be in pressuring the weeds for control. But I've never used a Brillion type seeder before, not that I'm worried about it.

Does anyone have any experience with a cultimulcher? What is it capable of doing in this instance? Could it be enough by itself rather than to disc things beforehand? I haven't picked it up from the auction yet, so I can't take it out and give it a try. But I'd like your thoughts on how to best utilize it in establishing hay ground.

 

[DJ54]

It's been 30 years since I've used a cultimulcher, helping a friend catch up on late Spring planting. It did an awesome job, but that was in plowed ground. Not sure what it would do in an established field. If it has been in pasture, or even hay, it's bound to be a bit compacted. In my mind, I'm seeing the spring shanks pulling up gobs of sod, and not getting a good level job, just compacted clumps. I guess the only real way to see, is to try it. Hopefully others will chime in here, or maybe contact your extension agent.

Personally, I'd probably disc over it twice, with the second pass at a slight angle, to see your passes when seeding. I've never used a Brillion type seeder either, as I use the Frost seeding method here. But I do rough it up in late Fall, to open the surface a bit, so the frost will pull the seed in the honeycomb formed during late Feb., early March. I've also got a small slit seeder for Fall panting of Timothy.

I wouldn't think you'd have a problem selling surplus hay. I still see hay haulers coming here to central Ohio to get hay, for down your way. I've followed several back across Rt. 68, and up Rt. 41 out of Maysville/Aberdeen, to up my way for hay & straw. I know a farmer just 10 miles from me, who strictly raises high quality hay. Last I talked to him, about 80% goes to KY., for horses.

 

[Dadnatron]

My current ground doesn't really have sod at all. It is much closer in appearance to wheat stubble appearance. There wasn't much filling in between the rows. I had it in by about Mid-May. It seemed to grow well, but being annual rye, it didn't have an opportunity to really establish. It did what I was hoping it would do, which was just keep weed pressure down. Actually, it did a pretty darn good job. When I see a weed in that field, I can walk out and see why, and 9/10 it was my drilling which left a short space which was missed.

So, all in all, I think that if I went over it once with a disc, it would probably be knocked out pretty well. I'll be picking up the cultimulcher Monday, and give it a go. I'll know what I'll be needing to do afterwards. I've just never used one before.

Now I have to locate a good, functional Brillion type seeder within the next month or so. I'm surprised, but our Extension doesn't have one for rent and I haven't found anything for rent. All the ones for sale are 30yrs old or brand new. Either people keep them forever, or they are more rare than I recognized. I'm a little worried about buying one of the old ones, simply because I really need it to work and work well. And if it doesn't, I don't want to spend a year that much money on seed only to have to reseed it. I've read on several sites, that people have had poor results with them, and I wonder whether it is because of the worn age of the seeder. I'm sure they hold up, but I don't know how you would get a poor stand if you had good prep and the seeder dropped and rolled like it is designed.

 

[powerscol]

I met with the local guy, my County Extension agent put me in touch with. Man... what a talker. But seemed very knowledgeable.

A few things he stated which were out of the ordinary, and I'd like your opinion on.

1. Seed heavy. His recommendation is 25lbs/ac. Local Univ rec 15-18
2. Seed in the fall between 8/15 and 9/15. Since we can have wet springs, he believes it insures the seed is in the ground when you can't/shouldn't get in the field.
3. Recommended putting in 10ac every year or so, to have various stages of production efficiency given crop age.
4. Perhaps think about putting half of the crop into just grass for grass hay.

Things I've thought about since I spoke with him.

5. What is the real world utility of RoundUp Ready alfalfa? The cost of seed is high, and I don't know the real world weed pressure for these fields in an alfalfa stand. Also, if I used it, I couldn't mix grass. I don't know about this, but thought I'd ask.

6. Till or NO-till. Currently I have annual rye which is turning brown. We mowed it twice this year. I put it in just as a summer cover crop to hold erosion and weeds down. My fields are 'relatively smooth' at typical 3-5mph. I don't know whether it is worth tilling this vs no-till drilling it. He leaned towards tilling it. What are the benefits and how would you go about it?

First I am in Colorado, so we are a bit dryer

His heavy rate is our normal, but I would recommend cut it in half and seed twice with the second seeding be at 90 degrees to the first (crossing pattern). Fall seeding here is good, but we also have a mid summer monsoon season and most fields are irrigated. No till is the norm here in most cases and most spray fro weeds the week before seeding, but most use a broad leaf type and not round up, but that will depend on your weeds.

Equipment recommendations

Baler - go inline small square - MF (Hesston) has a great selection and there are some good used ones out there. Mine has been trouble free now for 4 years and I bought it used.
Rake - go with a stand alone rotary rake - keep in mind your field gate size
Tedder - go stand alone tedder as most of the combo units only do a fair job at each. Again field gate size.
Cutting - look for a good used MoCO or something with a conditioner, other wise a good wide disk mower is good. Also drum mowers work well too and take less HP for any given width. (how is your weather foo drying - do you need the hay to be conditioned) If you have alfafa the answer will be probably yes, but talk to you friend.
Storage - do you have a place to store the hay and how is the clearance - I ask this as it will determine the method of getting the hay out of the field. With you tractor you could use a grapple and accumulator Kuhns Mfg LLC | Innovation in small square bale handling. or go with a hay wagon that picks up in the field and stacks by tilting up (barn clearance)
Grass tyoe - I planted a 6 blend mix for my irrigated fields, (agg service recommended) both cool weather and hot weather types, but no alfalfa as it is too hot for my horses - most folks here want an all grass hay

Last - how many horses are you running and do you need the full 30acres of pasture? If you don't need the full 30, save the best for hay
Hope this helps.

 

[Dadnatron]

Thanks powerscol, I'm originally from Southwest Colorado, Durango area. Moved for college and visit for family.

I appreciate your recommendations on equipment. It is inline with what I've been thinking but don't have experience in any of it.

For everyone, at what 'point do you think it is worth doing myself having to purchase equipment vs paying for custom cutting and baking? I've always been someone who does most everything myself, but I'm wondering whether this is something that would be worth hiring out?

 

[Dadnatron]

Also, concerning accumulators, I've been seeing ALOT of accumulators which drag the hay along the ground.

All the research I've seen shows that minimizing any damage to the crowns is key to better yielding subsequent cuts. An yet, I see these accumulators dragging hay all over the field, be it behind a baler or on a skid loader. It doesn't make sense to me that farmers are willing to do this to their next crop.

What is your experience? I don't think I'd chance it, given the research makes sense. It might be a cheap and easy way to get your hay off the field, but I wonder how much you lose in tonnage on subsequent cuts.

http://fyi.uwex.edu/forage/files/2014/01/FOF-WheelTrafficAlfalfa.pdf