Tree Spade - You think this will work?

woodlandfarms · May 17, 2007

So, we have to move some trees this fall. Or cut them down which I would like to avoid.

I am thinking about building a modified version of the shrub bucket plans that exist here on the web. I want to make something a bit more shallow (less angle to the sides) and I want it to have a pointed sharp tip - just like a Tree Spade blade.

So, if I do this, do you think that my tractor (4000lbs total with 1200lb FEL Lift capability) could use this to dig in under a tree, like a tree spade. I guess not dig, but press in to its hilt?

We do not have rocky soil but there is some clay.

My process in my head would be to go around a tree pushing the blade in and loosening up the tree. I would either push it over out of the hole or pop it up once I had cut all the way around.....

Anyway. Cause I have not seen anyone do this I am afraid I am missing something important. Love all comments on this idea...

Carl

Champy · May 17, 2007

Carl - It is critical to understand some of the parameters of your quest... How big are the trees (1" vs 24"); what type of tree are they (small fiberous shallow roots like with Cedars vs single giant deep tap root); Soil density / moisture; etc.....

I have had success doing the plunge approach with my Shrub Bucket from each side to cut all the roots and attachments to simply lift a Cedar tree out, but have yet to tackle a bigger hardwood.

Here is a sample picture on an easy (very small) sapling that came out in one plunge.

Champy · May 17, 2007

Some other images.......

I believe you can modify your bucket however you want, but if you go too narrow it won't have enough of a chisel effect to cut roots and create a good enough slice through the turf. Regarding a more shallow side angle - keep in mind that the sides of the bucket are also providing a significant amount of strength....going too shallow will create a larger surface area and when you start rolling the bucket as you plunge it may flex or bend due to the "flatter" perspective. More upright sides are better at levering out the load. It's mostly about finding a good compromise of angles; length; and strength....... Hope this helps

woodlandfarms · May 17, 2007

Champy.. Thanks... I really appreciate your insight.

We are moving cedars... 25' high with 6 to 8" trunk. Basically all our coin was spent on the tractor, and this year we will be without calling in any reinforcments (we need an arborist with a HUGE chipper and this would be cool to do with a real tree spade). But finding $500 to build or should I say have built is within our finances.

Got it on the angle of the dangle. I did not intend to flatten it but reduce the 45 degree side angle to something like 25 or 20. I am now mulling over splitting the bottom peice so there would be 4 pieces all with angles instead of 3 (I hope that made sense).

The whole purpose of this excercise (and the bad timing) is that the city is going to build a water tank on our property (actually a shed) and they need to take down a few trees. We are struggling with a neigbor who, innocently enough, cut down a few trees on our property edge that blocked us from him. He has offered to replant, but these are going to be cut down so we thought we would try and save them....

Keep the ideas coming.

Renze · May 17, 2007

Lately i cut a brush with 3 stumps of about 3 to 4 inch with the loader bucket. It wasnt a big thing actually, once i loosened it from 2 sides and then scooped it up in 1 go... I do have a 3,5 ton tractor with 1200kg FEL, which gives better cards in the game than your 2 ton tractor, but it all depends on soil conditions. Using a tree spade with a shallow cutting edge, instead of a 2 meter wide dirt bucket, will ease the cutting a lot.
I think it is definately worth a try, but use a sharp hardened cutting edge.

Gatorboy · May 17, 2007

woodlandfarms said:
We are moving cedars... 25' high with 6 to 8" trunk.

I think you are biting off more than you can chew. You will need about an 60-80" diameter rootball for these to transplant and survive.

Sounds like a chainsaw is your best bet.

teg · May 17, 2007

I would try it, you have nothing to lose and you'll end up with a tree spade to use or sell. First, I would dig a hole in the tree's new location, use that dirt to mound up soil around the tree trunk, (3ft away, 6" high) fill it with water to soften up the area... it's a guess, I would do it a couple of days before you transplant to let the water soak down deep. You may have to fill it up with water a couple of times. Good luck.

Champy · May 17, 2007

Large trees should not be transplanted with root balls smaller than 12 inches in diameter for each 1 inch in trunk caliper, however most Cedars have large fiberous root systems that are shallow and very widespread so a foot per inch diameter might be overdoing it. You should try to capture at least 75% of the root system to ensure better odds of surviving. Sometimes you can push a Cedar over exposing the whole root system anyway. If you have a lot of these and they are destined for removal anyway, pick one out to experiment on to determine the best approach and estimated root spreads.

However you eventually choose to move them, the receiving hole usually needs to be double the size of the root ball to encourage faster root growth into the new soil. i.e. - 2' diameter root ball = 4' diameter hole. Tree Spade machines simply cut a new hole to match the old one and drop it in, which works since they are taking the whole tree system together, but the tree will take longer to begin new growth without a prepared rootbed.

If you had more time, you could prune the root systems in preparation for transplanting.

woodlandfarms · May 17, 2007

Champy,

Your notes about pushing a cedar over is what got me going on this. First we are in a slope situation, with around 35 to 60" of rain a year. summers are turning drier due to my car, which has me nervous. Second was we had a huge windstorm over the winter and a number of cedars came up with rootballs intact. I was amazed to find that on a 5" tree trunk the rootes were no more than 1' deep. We salvaged a couple, and were successful.

So how do you like having a tree farm? Once we get our slopes opened up we are going to have to find a way to make some coin on the property. It is one of our ideas.

Carl

KentT · May 17, 2007

Carl,

Did you get a forklift with your PT? I can't recall...

If you did, you may want to try sliding the forks together and using them as a tree spade to give you an idea of how a spade might work for you... Some folks have had pretty good luck using them this way.

Though I'd like a tree spade, I'm seriously considering getting a set of lightweight, adjustable forks instead, since they'd be MUCH more versatile especially during the construction phase...

woodlandfarms · May 17, 2007

I did indeed. What a great idea.

Of course I just got some good news / bad news and I am not stuck in LA for at least the next 4 weeks... BUMMING....

KentT · May 17, 2007

woodlandfarms said:
I did indeed. What a great idea.

I thought I remembered lusting after them, but I wasn't sure...

Glad to help!

MossRoad · May 20, 2007

I have the fixed width forks on my PT425 and frequently use them to pry small trees and bushes out of the ground. Just one thing to remember.... your PT has extremely powerful hydraulics for its size. You can bend the forks if you pry too much. I bent mine with the little PT425. Just take your time, wiggle them into the ground until they are burried to the quick attach, then lift them back out. Don't do any prying until you get the ground cut all the way around the root ball.

As for the size of the trees that you are planning on moving... that seems huge and I would be surprised if you get them to live. As others have mentioned, there are some general rules of thumb as to how big your root ball should be for each inch of trunk diameter. The soil alone for a tree that big would weigh a couple tons, plus the weight of the tree on top of that is another couple hundred pounds.

Good luck, though. Since you have the forks already, it won't cost anything to experiment. Remember the unwritten rule of TBN... We want photos!

gemini5362 · May 29, 2007

Gatorboy said:
I think you are biting off more than you can chew. You will need about an 60-80" diameter rootball for these to transplant and survive.

Sounds like a chainsaw is your best bet.

Dave I have a T shirt with your quote on it. I got it at ThinkGeek :: Stuff for Smart Masses
I can tell you that I have never in my life had more response from a shirt I wore. People would stop me and say I know what that shirt means. Others would just read it with a puzzled look on their face.

Renze · May 30, 2007

gemini5362 said:
Dave I have a T shirt with your quote on it. I got it at ThinkGeek :: Stuff for Smart Masses
I can tell you that I have never in my life had more response from a shirt I wore. People would stop me and say I know what that shirt means. Others would just read it with a puzzled look on their face.

Which quote are we talking about?? the "i think you're biting off more than you can chew" or "you need a rootball to survive" or "a chainsaw is your best bet"

teg · May 30, 2007

(It's from Gatorboy, post #6)
____________________________________________
D A V E
There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those that understand binary and those that don't.

hz293 · May 30, 2007

Carl, if the forks work, let us know. I have to move some large bushes and I'd like to do it that way.

Harris

woodlandfarms · May 31, 2007

hz293 said:
Carl, if the forks work, let us know. I have to move some large bushes and I'd like to do it that way.

Harris

Will do. Won't be until the end of June, though...

jeffinsgf · May 31, 2007

woodlandfarms said:
...We are moving cedars... 25' high with 6 to 8" trunk. ...

The tree almost outweighs your tractor, let alone the soil that needs to accompany the root ball. All in all, I am guessing you're talking about picking up three tons with a 2 ton tractor.

Just to give you an idea, I have a John Deere 4410 -- about the same weight and capacity as your PT. I just dug up some Eastern cedars in the 15 foot range. I dug around the roots with the backhoe, but I was digging to extract the stump, not to transplant the tree. Cutting the trunk off the root, my tractor stuggles to get the root ball out of the hole. There's one or two that I don't think I can get out safely (or even unsafely).

You are going to try and move a survivable root ball (about twice or three times the size of my root ball), the trunk, and all branches intact. I believe you need four or five times more tractor than you have.

I had a tree spade guy tell me one time that they would not spade anything over about 5 inches.

EDIT: My Eastern cedars are not as tall, but larger diameter (12ish inches at the base). Even so, I think you're fighting an uphill battle.