Toyota Prius

[IslandTractor]

Please re-read my post. A Prius with 1 person on board getting 50MPG burns 0.02 gallons per person per mile [(1/50)/1=0.02]. A suburban with 6 people on board getting 20MPG burns 0.008333333 gallons per person per mile [(1/20)/3=0.0083333333]. So a Prius (in that scenario) uses 2.4 times more fuel per person per mile than the suburban. On a 1000 mile trip, the 6 people in the Suburban would each need to buy 8.333 gallons of fuel while the one guy in the Prius would need to buy 20 gallons of fuel. If you put 4 people in the Prius and 6 in the suburban, you would be correct. Aaron Z

Why do you guys keep comparing a Prius with driver only to a Suburban with six people on board?? That's rediculous. Another of Houston's brain farts.

Compare either same number of passengers or max passengers for the vehicle. In either scenario. Prius wins easily.

Do the math with nine in the Suburban versus five in the Prius. Neither vehicle by the way would achieve rated mileage when fully loaded.

Suburb with nine pax: (1/20)/9= 0.0056gal per pax per mile
Prius with 5 pax: (1/50)/5= 0.004gal per pax per mile

The Prius is 40% more efficient at max capacity.

Of course there are only rare occasions when long trips would be made with either vehicle loaded to max capacity. More realistic would be to run the numbers with three or four pax and the Prius or just about any other vehicle on the market would trounce the Suburb on efficiency under those realistic conditions.

HS is a moron.

 

[houstonscott]

Really just depends on the job. The Prius is a huge sacrifice on capability. Many families are faced with economic situations where they can afford only one vehicle, and it has to do many jobs. Investing 27k into small basic transportation with high single person mileage just doesn't make sense. There is reason why the most popular vehicle sale in the US is an F150. Sacrificing a few mpg during the commute week is minor compared to siting all weekend with the family because the Prius can't do anything but commute with a cup of coffee. It's why the 4x4 SUV is so appealing. Spending an extra 27k to save a few dollars during the commute just doesn't make sense for many. In the end the vehicles EPA mileage is just one factor and often not the most important one. The idea you are saving anything by buying a Prius is pure fiction. There are differences between mileage, efficiency, capability. The idea the someone would dictate their itty bitty life style on others is disturbing. HS

 

[IslandTractor]

Really just depends on the job. The Prius is a huge sacrifice on capability. Many families are faced with economic situations where they can afford only one vehicle, and it has to do many jobs. Investing 27k into small basic transportation with high single person mileage just doesn't make sense. There is reason why the most popular vehicle sale in the US is an F150. Sacrificing a few mpg during the commute week is minor compared to siting all weekend with the family because the Prius can't do anything but commute with a cup of coffee. It's why the 4x4 SUV is so appealing. Spending an extra 27k to save a few dollars during the commute just doesn't make sense for many. HS

And, spending double the cost of a Prius to get a truck that seats 5 comfortably and gets less than half the MPG so you can move a washer or refrigerator once a decade makes even less sense.

Trucks are work tools optimized to carry big and heavy or messy stuff not people. Sedans and hatchbacks are optimized to carry people plus routine stuff.

Using an empty bedded truck for a routine commute is basically advertising to the world that you have a little trouble with either your manhood or your math skills.

 

[MossRoad]

Manipulating numbers to support an absurd claim that somehow a Surburban is more cost effective than a Prius in terms of mpg is just foolish. Not worth dignifying with a rebuttal, IYAM.

Now wait a minute....
It worth discussing people miles per gallon.
Heck, lets even fudge a little and say the Suburban gets 25mps and the Prius gets 50mpg
If you put 1 person in a Prius and 1 person in a Suburban, obviously the Prius wins. It gets double the people mileage.
Now lets put 1 person in a Prius and 2 people in a Suburban. The score is even. You are moving the same amount of people for the same amount of fuel.
Of course, if you make the comparison fair, you put 2 people in each vehicle and the numbers favor the Prius.
And that's the point.... fair comparison. Houstonscott is not interested in a fair comparison.
Just as no one buys a Suburban for the purpose of saving fuel, no one buys a Prius to transport 9 people and their camping gear.
The argument that it takes 4 Priuses to transport the people and camping supplies that a Suburban can do in one trip is just plain lame. Extremely lame. As in epically lame.

However, if you already own a vehicle that is not as fuel efficient as a Prius, and you think you want to sell it and buy Prius to save a ton of money on fuel, you must do your own comparison to find out the time it will take to get your energy savings payback. If you're going to lose $2500 dollars on the trade, its going to take you a looong time to get that $2500 dollars back in fuel savings. It only pays if you drive high mileage over several years. For average people driving 12-15,000 miles per year, chances are you will NEVER see that energy savings payback before the vehicle wears out. However, if you can trade even or even get cash back, then you will come out ahead. But you won't have a big, roomy car or truck. You'll have a Prius with its advantages and its limitations.

 

[MossRoad]

Using an empty bedded truck for a routine commute is basically advertising to the world that you have a little trouble with either your manhood or your math skills.

Unfortunately that's a blanket statement that's just as off the mark as Houstonscott's. Some folks need a truck on a regular basis and can't afford a 2nd car.

 

[IslandTractor]

However, if you already own a vehicle that is not as fuel efficient as a Prius, and you think you want to sell it and buy Prius to save a ton of money on fuel, you must do your own comparison to find out the time it will take to get your energy savings payback. If you're going to lose $2500 dollars on the trade, its going to take you a looong time to get that $2500 dollars back in fuel savings. It only pays if you drive high mileage over several years. For average people driving 12-15,000 miles per year, chances are you will NEVER see that energy savings payback before the vehicle wears out. However, if you can trade even or even get cash back, then you will come out ahead. But you won't have a big, roomy car or truck. You'll have a Prius with its advantages and its limitations.

Initial cost and depreciation are indeed the 800lb gorilla twins in calculating true cost of ownership especially if you don't drive a vehicle all the way to the junkyard. I haven't looked carefully but I'm pretty sure that buying a three or four year old Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic and driving it for at least 100,000 miles is going to be the overall cheapest solution. It makes a pretty big difference to go from 15mpg (Houston is just dreaming about 20 in combined use) with a Suburb to a realistic combined 25mpg or higher with a Corolla/Civic over 100,000 miles. About 2600 gallons or $9,000 extra in fuel costs at $3.50/gal to run the Suburban which also cost double what the Corolla does to begin with. However, to go from 25mpg in a Corolla to 50mpg in a Prius will save less, about 2000 gallons or $7000 and the price differential between the Corolla and Prius is about $5000. So, over 100,000 miles a Prius might be a tad cheaper to run (less fuel and less brake repair than Corolla) but a lot of that is eaten up by the premium pricing for the vehicle either new or used.

 

[IslandTractor]

Unfortunately that's a blanket statement that's just as off the mark as Houstonscott's. Some folks need a truck on a regular basis and can't afford a 2nd car.

Yes, as with most generalizations there are exceptions to the rule. However, there is always Uhaul for the occasional true truck need. I'm referring to the accountants and lawyers who drive the empty trucks to the city everyday not the guy who actually works in a trade.

 

[houstonscott]

Just remember this winter when I pass your Prius on the freeway with my two hunting buddies, two dog carriers, three shot guns, all the hunting bags, waders, and decoys, and I might have even left the weed eater in there and 100 lbs of goat feed by accident because I forgot to take them out the day before. I'm getting more miles per person (better fuel efficiency) then you are, hard to swallow but true. HS

 

[aczlan]

Now wait a minute....
It worth discussing people miles per gallon.
Heck, lets even fudge a little and say the Suburban gets 25mps and the Prius gets 50mpg
If you put 1 person in a Prius and 1 person in a Suburban, obviously the Prius wins. It gets double the people mileage.
Now lets put 1 person in a Prius and 2 people in a Suburban. The score is even. You are moving the same amount of people for the same amount of fuel.
Of course, if you make the comparison fair, you put 2 people in each vehicle and the numbers favor the Prius.
And that's the point.... fair comparison. Houstonscott is not interested in a fair comparison.
Just as no one buys a Suburban for the purpose of saving fuel, no one buys a Prius to transport 9 people and their camping gear.
The argument that it takes 4 Priuses to transport the people and camping supplies that a Suburban can do in one trip is just plain lame. Extremely lame. As in epically lame.

However, if you already own a vehicle that is not as fuel efficient as a Prius, and you think you want to sell it and buy Prius to save a ton of money on fuel, you must do your own comparison to find out the time it will take to get your energy savings payback. If you're going to lose $2500 dollars on the trade, its going to take you a looong time to get that $2500 dollars back in fuel savings. It only pays if you drive high mileage over several years. For average people driving 12-15,000 miles per year, chances are you will NEVER see that energy savings payback before the vehicle wears out. However, if you can trade even or even get cash back, then you will come out ahead. But you won't have a big, roomy car or truck. You'll have a Prius with its advantages and its limitations.

My sentiments exactly.

Aaron Z

 

[aczlan]

Initial cost and depreciation are indeed the 800lb gorilla twins in calculating true cost of ownership especially if you don't drive a vehicle all the way to the junkyard. I haven't looked carefully but I'm pretty sure that buying a three or four year old Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic and driving it for at least 100,000 miles is going to be the overall cheapest solution. It makes a pretty big difference to go from 15mpg (Houston is just dreaming about 20 in combined use) with a Suburb to a realistic combined 25mpg or higher with a Corolla/Civic over 100,000 miles. About 2600 gallons or $9,000 extra in fuel costs at $3.50/gal to run the Suburban which also cost double what the Corolla does to begin with. However, to go from 25mpg in a Corolla to 50mpg in a Prius will save less, about 2000 gallons or $7000 and the price differential between the Corolla and Prius is about $5000. So, over 100,000 miles a Prius might be a tad cheaper to run (less fuel and less brake repair than Corolla) but a lot of that is eaten up by the premium pricing for the vehicle either new or used.

Speaking of fuel cost, lets say that you buy a Prius to replace your suburban, then do like brain55 suggested and rent a Suburban for your three trips per year each of which is 4 days long (a total of 12 days of car rental).
Lets also assume that fuel costs $3.50/gallon, you drive 10k miles per year, the Suburban gets an average of 15MPG and the Prius gets an average of 50MPG.
You used to spend ~$2333 on fuel for the Suburban, now you will spend $700 on fuel for the Prius thus you would save $1633. HOWEVER you will spend $157/day on renting the suburban (based on the Enterprise web pricing for renting a "Premium SUV" aka a Chevy Suburban, Ford Expedition XL or similar which seats 7 from 5 Dec to 9 Dec), so if you buy a Prius, and rent a Suburban for those 12 days per year (assuming that the rental cost doesn't go up), you will lose $254 (only looking at fuel and rental expenses) compared to driving a Suburban full time (this also assumes that you don't count time spent to go pickup the Suburban and that there is always one available to rent when you need one).

Aaron Z

 

[txdon]

Speaking of fuel cost, lets say that you buy a Prius to replace your suburban, then do like brain55 suggested and rent a Suburban for your three trips per year each of which is 4 days long (a total of 12 days of car rental).
Lets also assume that fuel costs $3.50/gallon, you drive 10k miles per year, the Suburban gets an average of 15MPG and the Prius gets an average of 50MPG.
You used to spend ~$2333 on fuel for the Suburban, now you will spend $700 on fuel for the Prius thus you would save $1633. HOWEVER you will spend $157/day on renting the suburban (based on the Enterprise web pricing for renting a "Premium SUV" aka a Chevy Suburban, Ford Expedition XL or similar which seats 7 from 5 Dec to 9 Dec), so if you buy a Prius, and rent a Suburban for those 12 days per year (assuming that the rental cost doesn't go up), you will lose $254 (only looking at fuel and rental expenses) compared to driving a Suburban full time (this also assumes that you don't count time spent to go pickup the Suburban and that there is always one available to rent when you need one).

Aaron Z

Refigure to the real world 30K miles a year and $4 a gallon.

 

[IslandTractor]

Refigure to the real world 30K miles a year and $4 a gallon.

I agree, few people who drive a total of 10K per year need a Prius and those who have them drive considerably more.

And, if all you need for your three or four trips a year is extra cargo and passenger space, join Costco then rent a minivan for less than half the price of the Suburban rental. .

 

[troutsqueezer]

Now wait a minute....
It worth discussing people miles per gallon.
Heck, lets even fudge a little and say the Suburban gets 25mps and the Prius gets 50mpg
If you put 1 person in a Prius and 1 person in a Suburban, obviously the Prius wins. It gets double the people mileage.
Now lets put 1 person in a Prius and 2 people in a Suburban. The score is even. You are moving the same amount of people for the same amount of fuel.
Of course, if you make the comparison fair, you put 2 people in each vehicle and the numbers favor the Prius.
And that's the point.... fair comparison. Houstonscott is not interested in a fair comparison.
Just as no one buys a Suburban for the purpose of saving fuel, no one buys a Prius to transport 9 people and their camping gear.
The argument that it takes 4 Priuses to transport the people and camping supplies that a Suburban can do in one trip is just plain lame. Extremely lame. As in epically lame.

However, if you already own a vehicle that is not as fuel efficient as a Prius, and you think you want to sell it and buy Prius to save a ton of money on fuel, you must do your own comparison to find out the time it will take to get your energy savings payback. If you're going to lose $2500 dollars on the trade, its going to take you a looong time to get that $2500 dollars back in fuel savings. It only pays if you drive high mileage over several years. For average people driving 12-15,000 miles per year, chances are you will NEVER see that energy savings payback before the vehicle wears out. However, if you can trade even or even get cash back, then you will come out ahead. But you won't have a big, roomy car or truck. You'll have a Prius with its advantages and its limitations.

I agree.

I've said all along and it's been written in nearly every article about the Prius that because of the cost, you will save little money, if any, by buying a Prius. Cost is not what it is about. Almost all the back-and-forth in this thread has been about cost, ignoring all the other ground-breaking features the car has brought to the market.

I knew going in, it was going to cost me more than if I had bought say, a Corolla. BTW, a lot of people compare the car to a Corolla. I have both, and there is nothing similar about them. The Pruis has features that can only be found in cars much more expensive than the Corolla. I would say that Houston's BMW is closer to the Corolla than the Prius, but not as sophisticated. He also keeps harping on how small the Prius is, as if it is some kind of Econo-box. Nothing could be farther from the truth, another claim that has no basis in reality. It's a hatchback, the hatch opens wide, the back seats fold down, you can fit huge boxes inside and tie them down using the built-in tie downs in four places. The interior space is considered MID-SIZE, Google it. And there's still space left over in the hidden trunk. Four adults can fit easily, each with a cup holder and armrests on both sides for both front and back passengers.

Did you know that Toyota had to come up with a completely new way of running the air conditioner for this model? If the engine is not running at stop lights, the AC must keep running somehow so they had to come up with a solution that would keep it going while not running the batteries down in a hurry. There were many other technological advancements needed to get the Prius rolling.

The HSD (hybrid synergy drive) system has been licensed to Ford, Nissan and Mazda. GM, Chrysler and BMW (yes, BMW!) are all copying Toyota's HSD system and putting their own spin on it. Is the world rushing to copy the VW TDI technology?

The car is cutting edge. Some people are afraid of cutting edge and will stick with their Corellian Cruisers no matter what, all the while slamming what they don't understand.

 

[bcp]

Why do you guys keep comparing a Prius with driver only to a Suburban with six people on board??

I wonder which will come out ahead if you put four in the Prius and only the driver in the Suburban?



Bruce

 

[Dr_Zinj]

Island is right. When comparing equal passenger loads, the Prius beats Suburbans and 15 pax vans hands down.
If you're going to transport more than 4 people; trying to compare to a Prius is a total logic fallacy if done accidentally, or totally dishonest if done intentionally.

 

[Heywood Jannockitov]

Is the world rushing to copy the VW TDI technology?

Hmm, let's see now... VWs latest TDI technology (developed by Robert Bosch GmbH) features turbo-charging and direct injection via high pressure common rail where fuel is fed to electronically controlled piezo injectors at approx. 44,000 psi.
That "technology" is now used by virtually every car and truck maker on the planet that offers a diesel vehicle.

Gasoline direct injection is basically the same principle. So for all those who dismiss diesel engines as too costly to repair and maintain in comparison to a gasoline engine, well, you now have GTDI engines, like the Ecoboost that are just as expensive!

 

[MossRoad]

Just remember this winter when I pass your Prius on the freeway with my two hunting buddies, two dog carriers, three shot guns, all the hunting bags, waders, and decoys, and I might have even left the weed eater in there and 100 lbs of goat feed by accident because I forgot to take them out the day before. I'm getting more miles per person (better fuel efficiency) then you are, hard to swallow but true. HS

Houstonscott.... its one thing to argue a point if you are even close to a majority... say even 30%. But 95% of the folks here do not agree with you on your stance on the Prius. 95%. That's a clue that you are on the wrong side of an issue. You're becoming that old man down the block that everyone tells their children to stay away from.

 

[MossRoad]

Refigure to the real world 30K miles a year and $4 a gallon.

The average American driver puts in a little less than 14K per year.

 

[aczlan]

I agree, few people who drive a total of 10K per year need a Prius and those who have them drive considerably more.
And, if all you need for your three or four trips a year is extra cargo and passenger space, join Costco then rent a minivan for less than half the price of the Suburban rental. .

Looking on their website, a minivan ("Chrysler Town and Country, OR SIMILAR" runs $82/day (for a 4 day rental from 5 Dec to 9 Dec) which would be $984 for 12 days/year.
As someone who has a minivan and a suburban in their immediate family, there is no comparison on cargo or passenger space... A minivan with 4 buckets and a bench will seat 6 adults and their carryon luggage. Good luck with much more than that. A suburban (2 buckets in front and 2 benches in the back) will seat 7 fairly comfortably along with 2-3 times as much luggage space as a Caravan

Refigure to the real world 30K miles a year and $4 a gallon.

The average American driver puts in a little less than 14K per year.

With 14k miles/year and gas at $3.757/gallon (2012 average per U.S. Regular Reformulated Retail Gasoline Prices (Dollars per Gallon) ) a Prius would save you $2454 in fuel. If you rented a minivan for those 12 days at $82/day (could be more depending on where you were driving it, unlimited mileage around here is just in the northeast, they charge you per mile if you were to go down to FL for example), a Prius would save you $1470/year.

Aaron Z