Front-End Loader Torsion Specs and Capability of FELs -- Loading and Testing

[JWR]

The impetus for this post/thread is that I think FEL buyers/users would be much better informed if data were available regarding the torsion and rotational load capacity of the FELs on the market.


Loaders get used for SO many things, whether appropriate or not, and a lot of people shopping for tractors see the loader as a very large part of their use and application. So there really should be specs on torsion. How much off center load will it handle producing how much angular deflection in the loader frame ? What is the max allowable ? What is the point of no return where a twist becomes a permanent disfigurement until repaired? It would be much improved insight into the tractor/loader capability to see those stats and to see them tested.


There is extensive data regarding lift capacity,height, breakout force, etc. but nothing I have ever found regarding off-center load capacity, torque about the fore-aft axis of the tractor, and related data. None of the common brands of tractors provide this data in their literature that I can find. The nations foremost tractor testing lab at the Univ. of Nebraska was confirmed a year or two ago as not doing testing on loader torque capacity or characteristics.

Certainly vertical-axis-only data is SO much easier to collect, measure and document than rotation and off-center data. That does not make the torsion data any less important ! I have bent my FEL on a MF 2660 and I am certain many people have bent or "spindled" their loaders too. Some of these incidents are minor (easily undone) while others break welds and create permanent damage. My abusive behavior involved prying out a locust tree stump with one corner of the bucket while using full-power and 4WD to accentuate the lift. There are obviously many ways to do it.

Aside from the lift specs buyers just don't have much to go on. The skid steer compatible interfaces (SSQA) that are slowly/surely dominating the market make torsional data even more important than ever. For example my MF SSQA works fine but won't stand much if you happen to hook one side of a heavy bucket or other attachment. I bent my left/right SSQA interconnect bar beyond redemption once.

I worked with standards organization in the aerospace test data processing business for decades. Standards would become the immediate issue if this ball ever gets rolling on FEL torsion. Otherwise each mfr could/would provide a baffling and often conflicting variety of specs/data unless there are at least a few basics expected to meet a standard set of specs.

The mfrs will be extremely reluctant to provide FEL torsion data because there is not yet a standard, because the complexity of testing is much greater than for straight-line vertical loads, and because they do not want to be put on the witness stand either in front of us or their competitors. I think a GREAT start to all this would be to talk the Nebraska tractor testing lab into suggesting a DRAFT standard and going to industry/consumers for comment. There is probably an AG industry engineering organization that should at least comment if not become involved.


While we are at it, consumers would be well-served by more info on the true origins of the loaders they buy. I have heard that many if not most of the big name tractors (Massey, Deere, New Holland, etc.) actually have their loaders made by third party subcontractors. So more shared info on the loader manufacturer industry would be a good thing in my view.

 

[leonz]

Hard to do, let alone justify simply because they were never ment for anything other than scooping and
dumping either light materials or loose materials.

When you get in to mining machinery its a case of cubic yards of material scooped or dug up with either parallel crowding force
with a crawler bucket excavator that either uses winch cables with a front shovel or a crawler mounted back hoe with hydraulic cylinders used to dig into walls of ore or waste rock at a lower elevation while it works and backs up as it digs out the ground in front of it.

Front end loaders used for mining are ment for scooping either loose materials or digging with a toothed bucket that is lowered to the ground and pushed into a wall of ore or waste rock and the heel of the bucket is used as a fulcrum while the retract cylinder(s) are used to break the grip of the ore or waste rock as it digs.

 

[Rebeldad1]

OK... I'll start this.

"My abusive behavior involved prying out a locust tree stump with one corner of the bucket while using full-power and 4WD to accentuate the lift. There are obviously many ways to do it. "

I did this same thing by accident. Was pughing dirt with a tooth bucket at full rpm. Caught a buried root and "BANG"
my tractor dropped to one knee. Broke the front 4X4 axle housing in half.

Granted it was a older Mitsubishi with a added loader. = loader out powered the tractor.

Moving up to today...

I have a Kioti with a factory loader. The newer hydraulics (HSD) pretty much limit overpowering the loader. Tractor as well.
Top that off with a amazingly overbuilt frontend I can rest easy on never breaking this one. Not saying it wont do its job but gives me a better perspective on being aware of my load. If its not lifting I need to rethink what I am doing and try again.

I use the tractor pretty much daily for everything and always think about what I am doing with the loader before I do it.
I am happy with that plus my bucket and edge are as straight as the day it was new.

 

[rScotty]

I don't ever load my tractors off center by very much. The limit for normal work would be when half the bucket is heaping full of dirt & rocks and the other half almost empty. That happens quite often when I'm moving a pile of dirt or rocks, but it never has been a problem - probably because it is the very sort of thing that any loader is going to be designed to withstand. Easy for a designer to do....

Getting a load any more off-center than that would have to involve deliberately deciding to accept some gamble that getting the job done right then was more important than the price of a loader and perhaps a tractor.....
For me that would include jobs involving using a corner of the bucket as a pry bar, or lifting a tree by grappling it way off center. I've done those things and the tractor survived undamaged. But the truth is that I was knowingly accepting the risk at the time.

What I'm saying is that those kinds of things don't happen very often by accident. At tractor speed, they are easy enough to avoid so pursuing them has to be somewhat deliberate - i.e.anyone working with those high torsional loads knows the potential for damage and accepts that the job is worth the risk.

Even so, damage to loaders is pretty rare and the one's I've used all seem to be sufficiently strong. If so, we would seem to be at a pretty good place in loader design. Perhaps we should define what we have now in typical torsional resistance so that we can stay with loaders at least as good as we have today.

rScotty

 

[4570Man]

I don’t think a lot of tractor owners understand that loaders are for loading. More realistically lifting and carrying loads and scooping material. They’re not a bull dozer and they’re not a skid steer. That being said I’ve done plenty of off center lifts to the point of even driving on 3 wheels and never hurt anything.

 

[oosik]

I'm quite careful about off-center loads with my grapple. I had one off center - three legged experience with my previous tractor. That was sufficient. The large rocks I pluck, lift & transport don't present a problem. One large blob - more or less dead center in the grapple.

It's the chunks/logs of Ponderosa pine that I pay a great deal of attention to. With my log weight chart and a tape measure I've always been able to determine the center of mass. It's not so much about tweaking the FEL - it's about safety.

However - when lifting heavy it's always a "knuckle dragging" situation. NEVER more than 6" off the ground while in motion. And - to date - I've never had to lift and stack rocks nor pine logs. The manner in which I operate - I never will have to.

I've helped my neighbor bring in his round bales. He always laughs at the way I operate his spare tractor and bale spike. He says if I run much lower with the bale - I run the risk of wiping off the nylon mesh cover on the bale. So be it - I refer you to my experience in the first paragraph.

 

[TimBuck2]

I would say that anytime you twist or break the FEL booms or frame, it resulted from an accident or abuse, and probably from the momentum of a moving tractor, not the force of the hydraulics.

I can't see any decently built FEL getting twisted just from lifting something with all the weight to one side of the bucket or forks or grapple.
As stated by Rebeldad1, modern tractors have pressure relief valves set pretty low compared to the build of the machine, so I am not sure it is even possible to twist something just lifting.

 

[JWR]

I would say that anytime you twist or break the FEL booms or frame, it resulted from an accident or abuse, and probably from the momentum of a moving tractor, not the force of the hydraulics.

I can't see any decently built FEL getting twisted just from lifting something with all the weight to one side of the bucket or forks or grapple.
As stated by Rebeldad1, modern tractors have pressure relief valves set pretty low compared to the build of the machine, so I am not sure it is even possible to twist something just lifting.

I agree. At least with the tractors i have ever used for any length of time (Deere, Massey and Kubota) I have never seen one "spindle," bend or twist a loader with nothing but the hydraulic forces. The only one I ever bent was via heavy use of BOTH the hydraulic force and the traction of the tractor under full power. Clearly abusive on my part.

By the way, if anything, I think most loaders are underpowered hydraulically for the metal they are made of.

I'm not complaining about any of the loaders under normal operating conditions. I just think there ought to be specs and standards as to what they will & won't stand (in torsion). Especially for buyers wanting to compare brands and models -- also for comparing 3rd party FELS to the native host tractor brand FELS. With no standards, no test data and no specs it is just people wandering around bragging, complaining and speculating.

 

[JWR]

Another consideration obviously is the host tractor... Example: It seems to me that Massey puts the the DL250 loader I have on my own 2660 on too broad a range of size/HP tractors. In other words the DL250 loader is lighter made than it should be for my MF2660 and yet very heavy duty and overbuilt when installed on some of the much smaller lighter tractors it was sold on. Not sure how much this varies among tractor brands -- how well they match the loaders and tractors.

 

[Jstpssng]

I don’t think a lot of tractor owners understand that loaders are for loading. More realistically lifting and carrying loads and scooping material. They’re not a bull dozer and they’re not a skid steer. That being said I’ve done plenty of off center lifts to the point of even driving on 3 wheels and never hurt anything.

Guilty as charged. I broke the box out of the arms of the "Great Bend" loader on my last tractor, while reclaiming gravel out of my road. I was trying to determine if I could do it myself or needed to hire a bulldozer.

I should have just hired the bulldozer.