Tire question w/ a new "slant"

[Leef]

Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

I mowed our acreage this weekend for the first time with my B2910 using a brush cutter on the 3ph and my mid mount mower attached (but not in use) b/c the grass-weeds were waist high in places and I had some brush to cut. I also left the FEL on. I have a R&B tiltmeter and discovered that I have some pretty significant slopes to deal with (10 - 15 degrees and sometimes 18 ish). I have already fealt "tippy" on the tractor over the winter and spring, but this was the test on our own property where 90% of our use will be.

It was worse than I expected. Sometimes I was grabbing for the handles (and of course had my belt on). I was pretty nervous and may be disappointed with my tractor choice. Last fall I borrowed an equivalent 4wd JD 955 with turf tires also (no FEL) and cut the same slopes using a MMM. That was one of the first times I'd been on a tractor and didn't feel nearly as "tippy" as I did this weekend after 50+ hours on my Kubota.

I asked the dealer's mechanic about it a few mo.s ago at the 50 hour service and he thought my turf tires were the problem or at a least contributing factor. He thought the turfs are taller and raise the center of gravity AND are "rolly" with rolled/round edges and possibly less compliant sidewalls.

I've been studying the Ag / r-4 / turf / michelin discussions about traction and scuffing, but don't see anything about slope safety. One mention said that turf tires give a wider stance than Ag's so they "should be" safer on slopes, but that wasn't my experience. I had a lot of weight close to the ground, but didn't feel as safe as the 955 w/ only the MMM.

I can do this mowing with a few adrenaline rushes, but I don't want to. I want mowing to be more relaxing and I want my wife and children to be able to do it safely.

When I returned the brush cutter to the rental business I saw another kubota that looked exactly like mine but was smaller. So I thought maybe it's center of gravity is lower and can handle the 10 -15 degree slopes easier like the 955. Upon closer inspection I found it is also a B2910 with some kind of lower profile, squared off edges, bar type tire. It really looked smaller/shorter. It has to be the tires and wheels. It was after closing so I couldn't ask any questions or try it out.

I can live with minor marks on the lawn and had no complaints with turf tire traction this winter with above avg. snowfall. But now I have many many questions about tires which I'd appreciate this board's advice based on experience on slopes:

1. Should I bring the bulldozer back for another $2500 to smooth out the slopes (if it can be done) so my children can learn to mow on this tractor safely?

2. Do all of the mowing myself forever and ever (at 6-8 hours per time) with periodic adrenaline rushes?

3. Replace by now beloved B2910 with something smaller & shorter?

4. Replace with an older used JD 955?

5. Are turf tires really the problem?

6. Do other tires (R-4) have lower profiles, stiffer sidewalls, a more square/stable footprint?

7. If I swap tires, can I use the same wheels or should I get different (wider & shorter) wheels too?

8. How much would that cost?

9. What are my 4 turf tires and rims worth in the classifieds (with 75 hours)?

10. Would filling these tires (or any tires) with fluid give enough low weight to fix my problem?

Thank you in advance,

Leef

 

[GlueGuy]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

Leef,


You should at least fill the tires to add stability. I would also look into the lower profile tires, or maybe "shorter" tires to lower your CG.

I mowed the area around a neighbors house the other day, and his slope was larger than I wanted to deal with. I managed it by mowing along the fall line.

One tip-over could ruin your whole ...... life. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

The GlueGuy

 

[MarkV]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

Leef,

I agree with Glueguy. Before you go to far with the expensive opions, fill the rear tires. I felt a huge change in the pucker factor after filling the tires on my B21.

MarkV

 

[rbargeron]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

I'll chime in on the tire-filling. It works. Actually you don't really fill them - just up level with the top of the steel wheel. That helps keep the CG low.

I have some very tippy areas too - and there have been situations where the pucker factor was high - like in tall grass and the ground is not visible and the tractor is continuing to inch in the wrong direction, tipping more and more. Don't be a hero - turn downhill and come back to that area later when you can see around it better.

Even when the angle is high, it really is not that close to tipping. The key is to go s-l-o-w.

Does a B2910 have adjustable read tread width?

 

[bpence]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

Consider two options before you change/invest in new tires & wheels.

1) Space the rear wheels as wide as they will go. You may have to turn the wheels around (inside-out) or may be able to move the wheel hubs further out on the axle, and this should give you more stability.

2) Weight the tires. Either fill them or use rear wheel weights.

Combined, these should really enhance tractor stability.

Bob Pence

 

[JackIL]

Re: Tire question w/ a new "slant"

I have a 955 with turf tires that I use on modest slopes. I have the front and the rear wheels set in the widest position. This gives an overall tractor width of 60 inches. In addition I use cast wheel weights on the rear--180 pounds each side. Finally, I don't drive on slopes with the loader attached. It raises the CG which is not what you want. If I have a rear implement attached, I install front suitcase weights for balance because they don't raise the CG as much as a loader would. I also have a tiltmeter installed. When it hovers just above 15 degrees, I become very cautious and attentive. If you expect to have your spouse and kids (who presumably have less expertise and experience than you) mow slopes approaching 20 degrees, you may want to consider getting an articulated turf tractor. (Ventrac--www.venturepro.com or Steiner--www.steinerturf.com). These tractors are very low profile and can be equipped with dual wheels front and rear. The mower decks are out front so the overall height of the vehicle is very low. Thus they are well-adapted to working on slopes (up to 30 degrees with dual wheels). I wouldn't hesitate to have inexperienced operators mow slopes with my Steiner, but I would not want them to try it on a taller compact tractor such as the 955.

 

[M. Sullivan]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

Leaving the FEL on also adds to the problem...more weight up top. Leaving the mid-mower on is a good idea. Also note, that the weight of the rear mower (or the mid mower when lowered) doesn't help stability. Intersted in how filling the tires improves the situation, if you go that route.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

The FEL probably contributed to making you more tippy. Try removing it while you mow if it is a quick detach type. If not then make sure you keep the bucket as low as possible while you mow. The FEL can influence your tippiness more than you would think it could and will catch you by surprise, especially if you have a load in it.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: Tire question w/ a new "slant"

M. Sullivan must have faster fingers than me, his post snuck in while I was writing mine! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[Von]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

Leef,
I think you will be fine with the tires loaded. I had a B8200HST with turfs that were not loaded, and it would cut fine on some big slopes. (see photo attached) With my B2710 with loaded turfs I can't believe how much more stable it is on slopes! I don't have to use 4WD have as much as before. Load the tires and remove the loader first and see if you notice a difference. I would lose the MMM as well so as not to damage it on something hiding in the tall grass.

 

[hayden]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

Unfortunately the 2910 does not have adjustable wheel width.

I agree with the suggestions to fill the tires, but will also add that different tires will likely help too.

I had a B2400 with turf/bar tires (loaded) and it was pretty tippy on rough, slopped mowing with a 3PH mower. I had the rear wheels set to max width (they're adjustable on that machine). The rear tires are also very rounded, I'd say even more so than the turf tires, and it definitely seemed to be a factor.

I now have a B2910 with R4 tires, also filled, and the difference in stability is quite remarkable. The heavier weight is clearly a big part of it, judging from improved traction, but I think the squared off profile of the R4s helps a lot too.

You might consult your dealer on this. I think mine would be willing to trade wheels and tires at 50hrs if I concluded that I had picked the wrong ones. Maybe your's will consider this, or at least consider a very reasonable trade $ value. Unfortunately you will need to change wheels and tires. You are also correct that the B2910 stands higher with turf tires than R4s, and that means a higher center of gravity, which is working against your goals

Good luck

 

[Leef]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

Von, and everyone else:

Thanks. Everyone's advice is pretty clear. I do have a quick attach to remove the bucket, but you're saying the whole FEL should come off ( the arms are quick attach also ). So, I'll get the tires loaded and remove the FEL and let everyone know. I also plan to rent that 2910 with the lower profile tires and give it a try too.

Von, thanks for the picture. Do you cut that mound on the left by driving straight up over or parallel to the length of the mound? I've been told that driving straight up and down will create ruts. That mound looks too steep to cut parallel.

Thanks again,

Leef

 

[Von]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

Leef,
I go straight up and down. Its alot steeper than it looks in the photo. About 35-40 degrees! near the left end I drive down it and then take the road and drive around to come back down. Its alot more stable with the loader off when doing all the hills. I'll get some better photos next time I cut the back lot.

 

[glennmac]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

I find this thread interesting because of its circular reasoning that admixes physics and psychics.

I agree that the things mentioned, such as filling tires, will increase the physical phenomenon of actual stability, but I don't see why, physically, they should affect the the psychic "feeling" of stability. If you don't tip over on an X degree slope without filled tires, there should be no physical stimulus that would make you "feel" any difference on the slope just because you fill the tires. Its just that you will now actually tip over at, say, X+10 degrees instead of X+8 degrees.

Now the circularity. Since the fear or "feeling" of tipping is indeed a psychic one, it is possible that simply knowing that you have increased actual stability will lessen your psychic fear, even though there is no physical stimulus that changes. Thus, there must be a stability placebo effect among us.

Just the other day, with my FEL and brush cutter on my 2910 with filled tires, I turned sideways up a little hill and had my tiltmeter exceed 20 degrees for the first time. I didnt tip. I did feel very fearful, but then I told myself that brush cutters increase stabiltiy and felt much better. According to this thread, that may even have been doubly circular: a psychic stability placebo based on a lie.

Whatever. The Zen aspects of mowing.

 

[jdkid]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

Hi ya
yes mind over matter i had one tractor that had tyres spaced out to 12 foot wide ,now of it to tip i would hate to think of how steep ya would have to go but ya did not feel safe but in saying that driveing it a night it was another story becouse you could not see a level or trees to realy know how steep .same with filled tryes unless ya putting 100's of Lbs low down it will not change things that much but in your mind 100Lb's is all that is needed to make the diffrentce ,bit like the guys who stop ya smoking just by puting ya to sleep ..
catch ya
JD Kid

 

[ddl]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

I agree with whqat you have said. The feeling of safety can lead to problems. You keep pushing the limit, it worked last time. You mentioned Physics and if you think about it, when you feel a tire with fluid, you add more mass to the tractor, thus more weight, thus more normal force which holds the tractor to the slanted surface, thus more stable feeling. You also mentioned the tiltmeter, now you know that at 20 degrees you will not fall off, this is good and bad. The bad bad is that the slant will increase because now you know at 20 you didn't fall off so 21 or 22 will not matter. That false sense of safety. The good part is that it proves my point that the tiltmeter is useless.

Dan L

 

[Hawgee]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

To add to the pucker factor. You then think of boat or deck shoes as turf tires and when you are comfortable with your tilt meter and procede, swoosh. Now that you've slid to the bottom of what ever you were on at some high rate of speed and taken a break to change your pants. Then and only then have you dicscovered the shear factor. Were're not talking shear fun! /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif

"What is a weed? A plant whose virtues have not yet been discovered."
Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882)

 

[Leef]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

Thank you everyone for the good advice. I thought I'd follow up with my experience this weekend on an identical b2910 with R-4 tires. I rented it this w/e b/c my tractor was busy building a driveway at my father in laws and I really wanted to know if different tires would make a difference. It really, really did. The rental had the same rear mower, a FEL, but no mid mount mower and no overhead canopy (which mine did). It had 12.4 - 16 Goodyear R-4's on the rear and 23 x 8.50 "Titan trac-loader" 's on the front.

Because of the MMM and canopy this wasn't exactly apples to apples, but I think it was pretty darn close (and w/o the MMM I would expect less stability in the rental). That being said, the rental and R-4's were much more stable physically and psychically. I was able to mow much faster, easier, and confidantly. I even went down to cut some trails in the woods which I couldn't even try on my own b2910 w/turfs. I'm sorry, I don't know the exact size of my own turf tires, but I can check and post if anyone wants to know. Aren't all turf tires for this tractor going to be the same size?

Anyway, it cost me 150$ to rent the other tractor to find out. But it gives me a long term plan to get the most stability for the future. Right now I will have the turf tires filled with beet juice and give that a try. I'll also pursue the value of selling or trading my turfs away. I don't live on this property yet, and only cut to keep the weeds down so there's no hurry.

BTW I also have a much better insight into the traction debate of Turf vs R-4's after going down into my river bottom to cut trails. (Hint: I got badly stuck with the R-4's in muddy places I've never been close to stuck in w/ the turf's; but traction is secondary to stability for me).

So anybody near Iowa want to trade?

Leef

 

[hayden]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

Have you tried to talk your dealer into trading wheels/tires with you? I'm quite certain that mine would do it on a realtively new machine if I could convince him I picked the wrong tires when I purchased. If nothing else you should be able to get a good trade in price.

I looked into switching my turf/bar tires for R4s (after 3 years) and the outright cost was going to be around $1600 if I recall correctly. I found one dealer willing to take the old tires/wheels and the swap was going to cost me $1000. Still lots of $$ and I ended up getting a comparable deal just trading the whole machine in for a new one.

 

[Leef]

Re: Tire question w/ a new \"slant\"

Von and others,

Thank you for the good advice. I already described the improvement in stability with the R-4 tires, but I wanted to tell the "rest of the story". I had my turf tires filled with calcium chloride and learned how to remove the entire FEL. I found a big difference in stability this way as many of you predicted. I think my filled turf tires are now equal in stability as the unfilled (lower profile) (square profile) R-4's. This is satisfactory for me but it cost me $150 to rent the other b2910 and $125 to have the tires filled. Oh well, who ever said knowledge would be cheap.

Thanks again,

Leef