Tire issue with local co-op

[Richard]

I don't know if I'm in the middle of a nightmare or just finished..... I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Sparing you the two week fiasco to get a NEW rim and new TUBELESS tire, I'll start near the end of the story.

Went to the co-op today to pick up a tire that's used (one of six) on my flexwing mower. I saw the guy mounting the tire in their mounting machine. I then saw him grab a box.... pull a tube out....

I got his attention and while shaking my head "NO", I asked...."is THAT (the tube) for THAT? (the tire)"

He nodded. I said no, it is supposed to be a tubeless tire. He graciously took me to the tire and pointed to the spot where it said "TUBE" on the tire, letting me know that meant it needed to be tubed.

I let him know that I specifically asked for a new rim (check) and wanted a tubeless tire put on it. The PRIOR version, was a rim I wanted rid of....BUT, it had a TUBED tire on it.

So I recognized he/they might simply replacing what I brought in, in the same format.

I told him to hang on....went out front to the PRIOR tire guy...and by happenstance, the very guy that I gave the initial order to. He basically walked back to the shop, told the (new) guy to mount the tire as I said, without the tube and he proceeded to pull the tube out, mounted a stem, tire, aired it up.

Meanwhile, I've got a voice in the back of my head saying that it says "TUBE" for a reason.... just like maybe a TUBELESS says that for a reason (all of which are unknown to me I'll admit)

He said the only real difference is some ribbing that's on the bead.... "if this leaks down on you, just bring it back and we'll put some bead sealant on it"

To which I said, well..... if that's the case, why not put the sealant on it NOW so that we maybe don't have that situation.

He pulled out the sealant, applied it to the TOP side of the rim where the bead resides. Filled it with air.

I then said, "I don't want to sound like an azz but...... shouldn't BOTH sides be sealed???"

"nah, they usually leak on the front side"

I'm standing there with my hands in my pockets, my knuckles are probably white as snow from being clenched.

I understand this has taken them two weeks to replace, I get that they accidently dropped it off at their OTHER shop 20 miles away (which is one reason it took so long for me to get it since they picked it up today)

This is the fourth new tire I've bought from them and the third new rim. To be fair to them, I had bought three prior tires, put them on the OLD rims and I think two of the three lost air so I replaced the old rims and had them move the tires (which were probably a year old)

I feel like I just got bent over but have been going to this place for 25 years and have always felt they were a bunch of 'good ole guys'.

So what's the story on putting a tire on a rim that says "TUBE" on the tire, and NOT putting a tube in it? Am I asking for issues?? (I also need to check my receipt to see if they charged me for the tube and didn't refund it after they yanked it out!)

 

[Vigo327]

First post here..

I'm fairly new to tubes (and tractors) in general but not to tires. Ive been an automotive technician all my adult life and now teach automotive at a community college, including mounting and balancing tires. I DO have about a half a dozen tubes installed on various things around here so it's not like I've never installed or used one.

Tires are assembled in layers and each layer has its own purposes. Not all types of tire 'ply' are intended to be as airtight as others. Usually on a car tire the very first (innermost) layer that touches the rim primarily serves as an airtight liner. Tubeless tires MAY be omitting such a layer completely (it is not structural as it has no thread/cord layer in it) or using a less airtight material.

In general i think most new tube style tires on clean rims would hold air for a good while regardless. I think the main thing it's going to do to you is force you to check pressure more often to avoid the early tire death of having a bunch of weight sitting on a pinched sidewall of a tire that's gradually gone flat when there's 'nothing wrong with it'.

For the record, i do mostly agree/believe with bead leaks mostly occurring on whichever side faces out. Whichever wheel is on the outside of a turn always ends up generating the most force and having the most deflection, so it makes sense that the outer beads of either side would be more likely to leak. I still understand the frustration of not having someone do exactly what you want when you're paying for it. The other side of that problem is that now that im 100% comfortable taking on the fight with tires and tire machines, I can't stand to let anyone else do mine at all. There will occasionally be times I wish i didn't have that problem, because some of them will still give me trouble here and there and make me wish i was doing something else.

 

[Smokeydog]

Nothing like a flat tire to waste a day.

Share you frustration with ag tire service locally. Had good experiences from Goforth tire in Kodak for ag tire repair and replacement.

After a rash of valve stems failing on tubeless tires now replaced with bolt in stems on trucks, trailers and farm equipment. I rather run tubeless if possible. Quality of where tubes are sourced like the valve stems always a concern.

Many tires I have put in slime or Gempler’s bulletproof tire sealant in to help prevent flats.

 

[Richard]

Update on my brand new tube tire without a tube in it (mounted on a brand new rim)

Cut a field yesterday.... of the six tires on the flexwing mower, I had one break the bead on both sides.

Happened to be the brand new tube tire, without a tube on the brand new rim.

I'm planning on taking it back to them and let them know I either want a tubeless tire mounted as originally requested, or refund this tire and they can keep it, that I'll go elsewhere.

I've bought four new rims from them with new tires on each one (all tubless) of those, I had issues with two of them losing air right out of the box. Those seem to now (finally) be fixed.

Had another one go flat and lose the bead (nothing to do with the co-op) but knowing how long it can take them, I bought a can of bead sealant and did it myself.

 

[pmsmechanic]

I don't understand why you are insisting on having a tubeless tire. My experience has been that any low speed tires that I have with tubes in them have a lot less problems with loosing air for any reason. Plus your wasting money on new rims when in your situation an old rim that is still servicable would be totally adequate for the job with a tube in it.

 

[Richard]

Simple (in my opinion)

Over my years, I've had more issues with tubes than not. If I get a nail/thorn in the tire, I can fix the tubeless tire in 10 minutes because I've got the stuff to fix that. Heck, I probably got three years out of near bald tires on the front of my riding mower..... with about 4-5 plugs in them before I finally replaced them last fall.

They're just easier for me to deal with.

The rims would probably work fine with a tube, yes. I do not feel comfortable that they'd work as well with tubeless (they were very old and getting very rusty)

 

[pmsmechanic]

Simple (in my opinion)

Over my years, I've had more issues with tubes than not. If I get a nail/thorn in the tire, I can fix the tubeless tire in 10 minutes because I've got the stuff to fix that. Heck, I probably got three years out of near bald tires on the front of my riding mower..... with about 4-5 plugs in them before I finally replaced them last fall.

They're just easier for me to deal with.

The rims would probably work fine with a tube, yes. I do not feel comfortable that they'd work as well with tubeless (they were very old and getting very rusty)

Okay I cab see your point. I very seldom get flat tires so not as much of an issue.

Next question... Have you ever used a tire sealant product like Slime? Available at WalMart etc.? I usually repair my tube type tires because that's what I prefer but if I don't feel like doing the work I just dump in some Slime. You install it through the valve core and refill with air, rotate the tire a few times and that's enough to stop the air leak.

 

[mwemaxxowner]

I chime in only to say I'm a firm believer in slime. I had an old ATV sit a few years with flat and dry rotted tires. Finally resurrected it but the tires wouldn't hold air long. I put slime in them and now have not had to worry about them in 2 years. Occasionally one of the cracks will ooze a little green. I put slime in all my off road tires now.

 

[ruffdog]

Do the wheels have the bead retaining humps near the bead seat area? If no humps, many times tubeless tires will lose air when pushed hard. It is common for implement wheels not to have that hump but cars and trucks do have the hump.

 

[notaz3]

My experience is with motorcycle tires. Tubeless tires have a stiffer bead to rim to help maintain contact with low/no air. You can put a tube in tubeless tire; but, not the other way around.

 

[Richard]

Okay I cab see your point. I very seldom get flat tires so not as much of an issue.

Next question... Have you ever used a tire sealant product like Slime? Available at WalMart etc.? I usually repair my tube type tires because that's what I prefer but if I don't feel like doing the work I just dump in some Slime. You install it through the valve core and refill with air, rotate the tire a few times and that's enough to stop the air leak.

I had slime in my lawn more (rider) tire when I replaced it (myself) Created a mess so I much prefer to avoid that. I'd rather foam fill tire if need be (but not a brand new tire on a brand new rim).

Side comment, I called coop yesterday, let the guy who pulled the tube out of the "tubed" tire to give me a "tubeless" tire on a new rim....let him know that I cut a field and of all six tires on the mower, ONE tire came off.....the "tube" tire without a tube. I let him know that I was disappointned and as far as I was concerned, the only fix is for them to do what I originally asked....slap a tubeless tire on there OR simply refund it and I'll buy it elsewhere. You could tell he was sitting with his tail a bit between his legs. Saga is continuing as I said I'd bring the tire/rim in on Saturday (he said he could have a new tire there today) So we'll see. It really kind of irks me that he/they tried to pull what I feel is a stunt.

Do the wheels have the bead retaining humps near the bead seat area? If no humps, many times tubeless tires will lose air when pushed hard. It is common for implement wheels not to have that hump but cars and trucks do have the hump.

No idea about humps. When I remounted a different tire (on same type rim) THAT tire went on by using the strap method and it simply slid on (if that's what you mean about a hump on the rim?)

My experience is with motorcycle tires. Tubeless tires have a stiffer bead to rim to help maintain contact with low/no air. You can put a tube in tubeless tire; but, not the other way around.

This was my belief also....and one that I brought up to the guy when he was mounting the tire. He bluntly said I'd have no issues and if I did, I can bring the tire back and they'd put some bead sealant on it.... to which I asked why wait to see if I have a problem? Why not seal it "now" to do all we can???

and the tire still came off.

I DO know that if I ever buy a 'new' flexwing, I'm going to get one with solid tires, not the flapper tires but solid none the less. I've wasted too much time on these stupid tires (which is another reason I got new rims, to rule out rim issues with them losing air) I now have 4 new rims out of six. The remaining two old rims/tires hold air fine.

 

[Smokeydog]

Hope it works out.

Use sealant like slime more often now with good success.

Had a Ford 4500 backhoe that destroyed tires. Finally bought some used 26 ply airplane tires that fixed that.

Often observed new tires lose some pressure at first. ??? Tire stretch?, air reaction with the tire? Noticed this too with filling with sealant. Then they tend to stabilize.

Put new extra deep lug, 12 ply skidsteer tires on front of tractor. New tires twice the weight of the OEM. Had a local garage mount them. Next day one was flat! Aired up and drove tractor down the road to the garage. Mechanic remounted the tire with rim sealant. Drove back home. Next time the same tire was flat again! Skidsteer tires like some tractor tires have a significant rim guard feature than puts a heavy reinforced sidewall over the metal rim so stubs and stalks can’t stick between the rim and tire. Tires were not getting seated at 45psi. Aired up to 100psi, rated to 80psi. Took a couple of days and using the tractor for the tires to finally seat all the way. Ending with a good amount of sidewall protecting the rim. The tire sealing bead was not getting to wheel rim to make a reliable seal. Then added Gemplers bulletproof sealant. Good now for years.

The local garage didn’t catch this and took me awhile to figure out. I would think co-op dealing with ag tires would know this.

Your bush hog tires should be this extra heavy rim guard type?

 

[Richard]

The rest of the story:

I took tire back to coop last Saturday. They had already ordered in the tubeless version that I'd need. The (former) tire guy that did the work, was off that day. The manager had just left to go to another of their locations, 20 minutes away.

Was told I'd have to wait for manager (why??) But, I'm patient, so I wait.....and wait.....and wait.... (they neglected to tell me it might take him an hour to return) After maybe 20 minutes, I finally said "hey, does he have a PHONE??? I'll call him"

Guy I'm talking to walked around corner, I hear him on phone talking to manager. He comes back saying the manager wanted to talk to me in person. (which means this is going to become a bigger issue than it already is AND it's becoming VERY annoying that they don't simply tell me some of these things rather than hiding in silence making me wait....which just riles me (near anyone) more & more.

Ultimately, an hour later, manager comes in we go to his office.

"We can't reuse that tire" (so no refund essentially)
"neither can I AND, had your guy LISTENED to me, he would have ordered the tire that "I" ordered and I would not HAVE this tire that you now won't take back"

Cutting to the chase, he said he'd sell me the correct tire, at his cost. No charge ($15) to mount it, no tire disposal fee. Furthermore, he thinks he might know someone who might want it....so he'll see if he can essentially, resell it for me.

I told him I didn't care what he did with it, when I finished I wasn't concerned about that tire nor was I looking back on this unfortunate event.

I said he can throw it away for all I care...... if he DOES find someone to buy it, for all I care, he can give it to them, charge them $5.00 or if he can get "my" $35 back for the price of the tire I just bought, I was certainly ok with that....but I wasn't going to lose any sleep over this once I left. I've got too many other things to do or worry about than a wrong tire.

They mounted new tire, I left and that's that.

I DID however, move it to one of the center 4 tires (not on a flex wing end). I had a previous (again, NEW tire on a NEW rim from them) that is still going flat. Got the water bottle out and that tire (let me reiterate, brand new about 3-4 months old on a new rim...) had about 3-4 tiny tiny pinhole leaks where I had very tiny bubbles.

So I pulled that leaky tire to the wing so I can raise it should it go flat during operation and put the new tire on the new rim on the center line presuming (fingers crossed) that it will finally hold air and I'm down to one slow leak tire.

On way home, I bought a bottle of slime which again, I don't really want to use but if that will keep this tire inflated, then so be it. I've spent way too much time/energy on these tires!! (and I still have two (of six) of the old original rims though they're still holding air so they're keepers for while)

 

[Richard]

Oh, so I got the new replacement tubeless tire for $35 plus tax.

 

[Vigo327]

Smokeydog, i do think small lawn equipment tires 'stretch' just a bit in the minutes/hours after they're inflated for the first time. Slower than the eye can see. I have no proof, but it seems like that's what happens.

Richard, it's a pretty unfortunate situation because as you say at some point the mental annoyance feels like it's more than the $35 the little tire is worth.

I'm on my 3rd gallon of Slime. You can get a gallon for about $24 on Amazon, at least over the last year or so since i started buying it. The only reason i run through so much is because i pick up all kinds of free crap that is literally someone else's garbage (never had to actually dig for it, at least) and see what i can get out of it. I've pumped slime into things that were long, long shots and several of those efforts failed. If i only put it in things i was 100% sure it would work in, i'd probably still be on that first gallon.

I think slime by itself is.. just ok. However, if you know how to do a tire plug, the combination of that AND slime covers at least 80-90% of tire leaks out there. I guess the real beauty of slime is that it's always rolling around in there 'on standby' and doesn't require you to actively do something every time a small leak develops.

 

[Cougsfan]

I mow a lot of stuff that is outside of my lawn and I am definitely a "slime guy" for my riding lawn mower tires. I am not picky if the tire has a tube or not. Without slime, tube or no tube, the tires will eventually get punctured and loose air. With slime it will get punctured, but doesn't loose an appreciable amount of air. If my tubeless tire does get a big hole, I simply wash the slime out of the tire and rim, install a tube and put more slime back in. You could waste a lot of mind power on just what is the ideal tire set-up, but I'd rather just go get the mowing done.
Also, I could never imagine myself taking my mower tire into a shop to be repaired or replaced in the first place. It is a pretty low level maintenance project. But that's just me.

 

[zzvyb6]

OK. My experience. If the tires on your flexwing are 'small' (as in less that 12") then most tire machines and operators have a great deal of difficulty mounting them. The mount head ([duck TAIL] has the wrong curvature (it's too big). so what happens is that the duck BILL (for dismounting), can tear the bead rubber enough so it won't seal. Plus, the same parts can/will scrape the metal rim and sharp slivers will be left on the bead area. This is why all the tires leak out from the Schraeder valve side. That's the side the mount head can or will bend or tear or scrape.

Plus the drop center is not as deep as most car or truck wheels and the tire sidewalls and bead rings are very stiff. So, the small tires are a Royal PITA to mount and keep sealed. A tube pretty much forgives this damage, but there is another problem as a result. Wheels intended for tubeless tires usually have a lot of weld flash or even leftover mig wire at the forming joint. This WILL eventually puncture the tube unless a saavy tire tech grinds and smooths it down. Aso, the hole in the rim for the stem is usually a different diameter between tube type and tubeless type wheels.

I learned to change my 8, 10, & 12" tires using 3 or 4 vice grip clamps, dish soap, and some dull flat edged tire changing tools. Best down with other people not around because of the language barrier. Also best on new rims because the previous machinery used on the wheels bent the rim flange, tore pieces out of it and made the rim leak. BTW: the hole in the rim sized for a tubeless stem has sharp edges. If you ever spin the tire on the rim, the tube goes with it and the stem will be sheared off.

Now I have a used Bean/SnapOn machine that I made rim clamp adapters for to hold the small rims. Golf cart tires are done a lot here because I get them for free and they fit on a lot of my equipment. With a lot of rubber lube [RuGlyde] you can carefully pull small tires off the rims with the duckbill in it's normal position. But getting new tires on is a challenge because the rims can be already damaged, the expensive new tires are stiff, the duck TAIL has the wrong radius no matter what position you put it in, and the tire doesn't cooperate while rolling the beads on. Still workin' this issue and trying to find a mount head for small tires (or maybe get a shop to make me one). My machine can be faster if I'm VERY careful but doing it by hand has the best air retention longevity. And if you puncture the tube with the screw drivers known to be used to slip the beads onto the rim, it's back to square 1.

 

[Vigo327]

We have a Hunter Auto34S machine at work (its one of 3 machines, the other two are older) that I have learned to use on mower tires down to 6" wheels. I have used a rim-clamp machine on wheels down to 10" but did notice SOME issue with the toolhead as mentioned.

On the Auto34 (which is an expensive piece of equipment!) you usually clamp the wheel to the machine with a big bolt thing down the middle of the hub bore. Problem there is that thing is like 1.25" diameter so if you go down to lawnmower wheels with ~3/4" bore it will not work. However, I found that the pleumatic arm which you normally would use to push down the sidewall of the tire while spinning the beads on will reach to the center of the machine and push a smaller wheel down onto the mounting flange hard enough to hold it while you spin the machine. Since the toolhead of that machine is very narrow it is not as sensitive to different curvature of the wheel, and since it slides straight in, radially from the outside, it does not misalign at any wheel diameter. The bead breakers are roller wheels and not a curved shovel like on the older rim clamps, so again a curvature mismatch is avoided. In all id say its a pretty excellent $15000 tool for doing a $15 job on a <$50 lawnmower part!

 

[hugo454]

I then said, "I don't want to sound like an azz but...... shouldn't BOTH sides be sealed???"

"nah, they usually leak on the front side"

and when they go flat it's usually on the bottom!

 

[IndyJay]

...For the record, i do mostly agree/believe with bead leaks mostly occurring on whichever side faces out. Whichever wheel is on the outside of a turn always ends up generating the most force and having the most deflection, so it makes sense that the outer beads of either side would be more likely to leak...

I'm not sure that I'm understanding this correctly (talking tractors, not cars).
When you turn, I see where the outside of the tire on the outside of the turn is getting the most force on that wheel, but isn't the inside of the tire on the inside of the turn getting nearly the same force as the outside of the outside tire? Especially since the inside tire is turning more sharply.