Timber land questions

   / Timber land questions #1  

HGM

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 9, 2005
Messages
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Location
Georgia
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YM2000
So, I've had the idea presented to me in the past and have been kicking it arround for years but cant find the answers I need...

My primary questions are:

Is it possible to buy a large tract of land and pay for it with the timber sales?

If it's possible(even partially), can the timber be sold upon closing and using the timber payment at the closing?

My reasoning is long term, hunting property and investment.. I would likely replant as well.. Just curious what you guys think and have experienced.. Thanks...
 
   / Timber land questions #2  
It's not impossible but it is difficult to pay for the land with a timber sale. The main reason is most people who are selling land know the value of the timber and either have it timbered before they sell the land or raise the price enough to cover the timber value.
 
   / Timber land questions #3  
If this was the case, as you present it, why would the present owner not sell the timber and keep the free land.

What you are looking for is something for nothing.

However if you would want to use the timber for a down payment that would be possible.
 
   / Timber land questions #4  
That depends on if you are planning to cut it yourself, or have someone else do it. Stumpage value should run about 30-50% of the mill delivered pricefor the wood, depending on quality and product. Location is another consideration, as the bare land value price should include other assets such as water frontage, development potential, proximaty to services, accessibilty, etc. Also the distance to where you sell your wood is a factor, as trucking costs can eat into your profits.

If you're looking for someone to help you with your down payment talk to a logging contractor; he may be willing to purchase some or all of the stumpage. That is a double edged sword, however; once you accept his money it'll be a lot harder to kick him off if he doesn't abide by the cutting specs laid out in the contract you sign with him.



Having said that, many of the logging contractors here are buying former industrial land, recover their money cutting it, then either sell or sit on it and let it grow back, much the way the former landowners did for the last 2 centuries.

On a smaller note I purchased my lot 5 years ago for 10K; although it was cut hard in 1979, by the end of the summer I will have recovered that price from the overmature and dying trees I've cut. When I'm done my 20 acres will be healthier than when I started; and 7-10 years from now I'll need to do it again. I also left enough hemlock and spruce to saw for my garage and other building purposes; and although I've taken about 15 cords of firewood, and there is more remaining than I'll ever use.

Remember, that doesn't cover the cost of operating my tractor, saw, or other expenses.

The worst timber "stand" which I own is the 5 acres they didn't get into last time; I'm cutting the dead and dying beech in a way to promote healthier regeneration; but that is the only area which I'll never cut again.
 
   / Timber land questions #5  
You can definitly do it, You just have to find the right piece of land at the right price.

I have talked to other people who found land with timber at good prices and it also happened right here at my place. Unfortunitly I got here late. I bought from a logger who bought from the original farmer. The logger bought at a good price, logged the h#*l out of it, then sold to me for more than he paid the farmer.

If I had found it b/4 the logger the timber would have probably paid for 75% of the mortage.

Shop around, wait for the right deal, and be ready to jump.

Good luck, Larry
 
   / Timber land questions
  • Thread Starter
#6  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( If this was the case, as you present it, why would the present owner not sell the timber and keep the free land.

What you are looking for is something for nothing.

However if you would want to use the timber for a down payment that would be possible. )</font>

Dog, theres allot of people in this country that get somthing for nothing on a regular basis.. I'd like to ge some of it, if its there too/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif... 100% may be a rediculous thought, but maybe 75%??? I dont know... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I've been told (right or wrong) by several people that it is possible, or at least was possible in the past (I tend to believe the folks that told me this, but it was many years ago that they did it)... I agree it sounds crazy, but surely everyone cannot afford 100ac at $3-4000per acre.. My main thought is to get into the property.. My financial situation(I dont thinnk I'm alone either) wont even allow me to look at or even consider a $4mil peice of property...Thanks for the input so far guys, this is something that really interests me and it would likely help others not familiar with the idea get more porperty too.. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Thats what we all want, isnt it? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / Timber land questions #7  
I bought 302 acres of timber land with a partner with the plans on developing part of it into an RV Park, parcel off part of it into home sites and holding on to the rest as a long term investment for the timber. Based on what we thought we could get for the timber, we figured it would more than pay for the price of the land in 20 years.

Unfortunately my partner in the whole deal turned out to be a flake and wanted out almost as soon as we got started. He was totally useless and was only interested in getting his deposit back and how soon it could happen.

I split the land into three parcels. One for the RV Park of 68 acres. One prcel for the timber of 200 acres and one for development of 34 acres.

I sold it two years after buying it for enough to pay him off, pay off the note on the 68 acres for the RV Park and enough to build my home for cash.

There's allot of heartache involved with it, plus I came real close to going broke and my marriage fell apart. In the end, it worked out for me and I'm in a better position all around than before, but I'd never want to go through it again!!!

Never rely on money that you don't already have. It's one thing to plan and work towards it, but NEVER RELY on it.

Good luck,
Eddie
 
   / Timber land questions #8  
Greg,

I looked into this before buying my land. The problems were that like Eddie, i would have to have a partner....initial $ is alot. So the land i bought had already been select cut for hardwoods, so possibly my daughter will get to log my place some day. Now, i have been picking my real estate guy's brain and listening to his timber investement outcomes for the past 4-5 years. Here is what he has experienced: along with 2 other investors he bought larg chunks of land(close to 1,000ac), then picked a logger with a good rep and select logged in a manner that didn't make a mess out of the woods. During the logging he had roads cut and the parcels survey'd. The logging paid for a little less than half of the land. He then sold the parcels at double the paid price. Keep in mind that the surveying and dozer work was a big expence. He also was very diligent in "popping in" on the loggers and counting logs. It seems that some loggers will report somewhat lighter loads that actual /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif.
I think the only way to do it is to grab something at a good price and expect less than a 50% logging return. If you can afford a tract that is 50% more that you need/want, then half of the tract can be sold off after it is logged, then you could possibly end up with the tract you want closer to being paid off.
Yep...it takes money to make money! BTW, my real estate guy is always complaining about his investment "partners".....conflictconflictconflict...........

RD
 
   / Timber land questions #9  
Very possible and can be very profitable! Location is and will always be everything.Trees,roads,Mill, trucks, fallers,choke setters,skidders,foresters,Timber harvest plans (THP),Price of timber at current time ,The quality of the timber culls and such. If you don't know much about THP's I would suggest highering a forester to do a timber cruise and scaling.I know many people who have done this sort of thing You can end up in the poor house if you don't plan it out perfectly. Main market here is Douglas fir and DF is always in high demand .

Good luck /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
   / Timber land questions #10  
HGM,

Yes its possible. We did it. And without help from TBN. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

We bought 72 acres that was owened by a developer. The land had been subdivided into roughly 3 acre lots but did not perc. He then redid the subdivision into 5 acre lots but 70% of them did not perc. The land had 70+ year old trees.

We bought the land and for a few minutes owend 72 acres but we sold off 16 acres, three lots to a friend and ended up with 56ish acres. I did the work to find a Timber Agent and we logged a total of about 54ish acres. We did not logged roughly 15 acres. The rest was selectively timbered. We had a mixture of pine and hardwoods. There are two clear cuts that had the pine but 5-6 years later its hard to tell its been timbered except by the stumps and some piles of tops here and there.

The timbering was a good 30 percent of the price of the land. If we had timbered all off the land that would have paided off another 5-10 percent. Clear cutting the whole thing would have brought in more money.

Now here are the cavets. It took us years of looking to find this land. Almost every weekend if we found something for sale we went to look. Sometimes in the middle of the week. We learned after awhile that if we wanted land you had better get there quick. The land we bought went on the Market on Monday, we looked it over first thing Tuesday morning, did the contract that day, and had it on the seller desk by Wednsday morning. And we were there just after sunrise on Tuesday.

I interviewed two Timber Agents to see if they would represent us during the timber sale. They told me that they where representing clients that had contracts behind us. To go after timber land you have to understand there are other people out looking so you have to have a feel for price of land and timber. You also have to know what you can pay and have the cash to to help buy the land and pay the mortgage until the timber sale happens.

During our years of looking we found a couple situations where people where buying land, timbering it, and then selling or developing the land. One team we delt with was buying the land, selling the timber ASAP, subdividing the land and selling it as quick as possible. There are tax advatages to doing this.

Some people know the value of the timber but many do not. They also don't understand the timber business at all so they get taken by loggers all of the time.

You have to be careful with having the Timber and Land closing at the same time. The only way to have to Timber closing is to have it cruised which will let the seller know what you are going to do. Also since you don't own the land that is being cruised you are letting the other loggers know about the property before you own it. That is asking for trouble.

We bought our land and had the timber sale a few months later at the latest. Once we had the money we paid down the land loan. The bank just redid the loan at no cost to us. They have done this twice for us know. We only have a bit more to pay off and the land is all ours.

You can do this it just takes some money, knowledge and time to find the property.

Later,
Dan
 

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