The "Plasma Plunge" - Miller vs Thermal Dynamics

[toy]

Is it possible to weld with a plasma cutter?

 

[yomax4]

Welders put things together, Plasmas take them apart. There is a Plasma Welder however. Look up Thermal Arc Ultima 150.

 

[J_J]

Pro-Fusion: The Plasma Arc Welding Process

 

[toy]

Welders put things together, Plasmas take them apart. There is a Plasma Welder however. Look up Thermal Arc Ultima 150.

So there is not an attachment that you can get to put on a plasma cutter to weld with it.

 

[yomax4]

No. It is a Cutting Machine Only. Gouging and Piercing as well. Plasma Welders are a different animal..

 

[jimcolt]

Hypertherm is in Hanover NH, about 8 miles away from the T-D plant in West Lebanon. Hypertherm has been in business since 1968, and was founded by a Dartmouth Graduate......was not spun off from T-D as a lot of people suspect!

Today Hypertherm is the worlds largest plasma system producer making systems from 12 Amps to 1000 Amps, as well as producing cnc controls, torch height control systems and nesting CAM software for large industrial cutting applications.

Hypertherm invented the contact start (non high frequency) torches over 20 years ago....and many other manufacturers have copied the technology since the patents have expired. Hypertherm produces torche for Miller and a few other brands as well.

Take a look at the Hyperthrm Powermax plasma units.

Jim

TD has been making plasmas for 53 years in West Lebanon NH. Unsure about the other guys but I wonder where they came from being in the same small town and all.? TD has a 4yr warranty. I wonder why every one else only gives you a 3yr.Whyis TD $400 less for the same amps output? All Plasmas are good but don't forget to compare tit for tat..

 

[Jim in ICT]

I've sold all the major brands, but prefer the Hypertherm equipment. You can't beat their product support, both at the factory and our local rep.

 

[bigwhitehd]

i have the cutmaster 52, and really like it.

Clean cuts, easy setup, and it rips through 1/4" like butah.

I would buy it again.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

i have the cutmaster 52, and really like it.

Clean cuts, easy setup, and it rips through 1/4" like butah.

I would buy it again.

Yep, thats what I plan on buying myself. Reorganized some priorities so the Plasma wont be right off. I figure its probably wiser to start construcion on a 30x40 shop.....

 

[jimcolt]

Amperage is how many plasma manufacturers rate their systems, however Amps are not the true output power. The actual cutting power is rated as wattage, or actually killowatts. If you compare a 50 amp T-D unit to a 45 amp Hypertherm (same price) you will find that the Hypertherm produces a higher kW output at a higher duty cycle rating. Put the torches in your hand and cut with both side by side and you will see the lower amperage unit cuts faster and thicker...and with longer consumable life.

Hypertherm is an employee owned company located in Hanover NH, Thermal Dynamics is part of Thermadyne (a publicly traded company) and they are located in West Lebanon, NH. about 8 miles from Hypertherm. Neither company was a spin from the other, rather, both Hypertherm and T-D got their roots in the late 50's and 60's from Dartmouth Colleges Thayer School of Engineering.

Today, Hypertherm is the worlds largest producer of Plasma cutting equipment with units from 12 Amps to 1000 Amps....and also produces consumables, torch height controls and industrial cnc controls for plasma cnc machines. Hypertherms equipment is all manuafctured in its plants in NH, while T-D manufactures some of its products in NH, some in Asia, and some in Mexico.

Check out Hypertherm | Plasma Cutters | Plasma Cutting Equipment | Metal Cutting Equipment lots of good plasma cutting technology and training materials on this site.

Jim

 

[Scooby074]

Just curious, but what kind of prices are you guys in the states paying for Hypertherms?

Up here, on sale, the best prices i see are:

$1259 reg:1598 for the powermax 30

1879 reg: 2334 for the 45

and 2749 reg 3300 for the 1000.

how do those compare?

Also for those that have visited the plants, what are the typical discounts for "scratch and dent"?

I might be taking a trip to the states this summer, and who knows, if the price is right one might follow me home

 

[lostcause]

Just curious, but what kind of prices are you guys in the states paying for Hypertherms?

Up here, on sale, the best prices i see are:

$1259 reg:1598 for the powermax 30

1879 reg: 2334 for the 45

and 2749 reg 3300 for the 1000.

how do those compare?

Also for those that have visited the plants, what are the typical discounts for "scratch and dent"?

I might be taking a trip to the states this summer, and who knows, if the price is right one might follow me home

i live in maine, so we're the first thing you see once you cross the border. i know i made the comment earlier in this thread, and spudland dave agreed - what few local dealers we have don't seem to do much business in these brands of machines. not necessarily their fault either, cause with years of conditioning to miller and/or lincoln welders, the buying public has sort of been herded in one direction (or two).

i've even had some price discussions with some places, and they can give me a great deal on what they have on the floor, but to order something won't be as good of a deal. to me this makes little sense. they special order an item and i pay the moment it arrives (or before). they don't have the cost of that item adding to their inventory, so in theory they should be able to pass it on at a relatively decent price. it's not like i'll fold over and buy what they do have - i'll go spend my money elsewhere on the item i want. they make nothing then.

in today's times, economics certainly takes its toll, and i try to buy as much locally as i can, but to be honest, if your local dealer doesn't stock the item, or market and push it, then they really won't have much first-hand knowledge either. at that point, where is the big benefit of buying local? i'm just as well off buying from one of the ebay dealers and coming out of it cheaper.

last i looked on ebay, the hypertherm 45 was $1530 and the thermal dynamics 52 was $1392 - both with free shipping to us locations. no idea what's involved with costs going over the border or if those dealers ship there.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

.....if your local dealer doesn't stock the item, or market and push it, then they really won't have much first-hand knowledge either. at that point, where is the big benefit of buying local? i'm just as well off buying from one of the ebay dealers and coming out of it cheaper.

Nor will he have the consumables on the shelf, they wont stock consumables for one guy with one machine...I know I can get TD & Miller consumables in about 5 minutes.

Jim, Hyperthem might be a GREAT machine and sell a bazillion of them to all kinds of companies all over the globe...from what I read online, they ARE good machines...BUT to me they are no different then a Harbor Frieght plasma..until I see them and talk to people who have them locally, I'll stick to a "locally available" brand.

I can be into a Cutmaster 52 for less then an HT-45, have locally available service, parts, consumables, etc.. have people around me with knowledge about the TD, etc... To have a real chance at selling me any Hypertherm product it would need to be WAY cheaper then they are. I cant justify paying more for getting less.

Riddle me this...you claim the HT is more powerful amp for amp.... Why is the HT rated at 1" max severance and the Cutmaster 52 is rated at 1.125" when according to you its less machine. I saw the Cutmaster 52 cut 1" with what I consider ease with my own 2 eyes so I'm not exactly understanding the HT rating method. According to you, the HT-45 should cut thicker & faster... This is what happens when you dont have machines out in areas...its a Chicken & The Egg situation... People wont buy them because they dont see them, and you cant sell them because people wont buy em...

 

[Scooby074]

Thanks Lostcause.

Looks like about $300 savings. Not too worried about consumables as HT is available coast to coast through Air Liquide.

Im going to keep following this thread. Im curious as to the what is the better machine between the HT and TD. Not sure where id get TD parts locally.

Im still curious about scratch and dent. I dont mind some surface imperfections if i can save several hundred

Any good online stores with aggressive pricing?

Im just trying to see what the best deals are.

I was in the bidding at a farm aucton last fall where there was a HT30. It ended up selling for over 1K:confused2: Crazy as a new one isnt much more. I dropped out after $750

I dont need one as ii have O/A torches, but if i can save several hundred i just might find the need.

I dont think any duty will apply at the border as its US made but ill likely have to pay HST (15%)

 

[jimgerken]

I own a TD Cutmaster 81. I started out with a cutmaster 38. If you search, you can probably find a really complete thread I started detailing construction of a plasma cutting table. In fact, I searched and the thread is stil out here, here's a link...

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/19610-plasma-cutter-automation-project.html
When I built this, there was much less on-line CNC reference available than there is today. It was a struggle, and as you can read, I even got a lot of help from people on this TBN forum. If starting today, it would be much easier because of all the CNC forums, software, hardware websites, etc.
My machine is still in operation, cranking out great parts. It seems that once you have this capabilty, every project makes use of it. It is not speed that draws me to automation. In fact, it takes at least an hour to make a single part with the NC plasma. First it must be drawn, then flattened, saved as DXF, taken through another software to put in cutter compensation and start and stop commands, then manually modifiied to include some delays at the start and stop points. Finally it is goes thru the table-driving software for a dry-run test, and then a real part is cut. But the great part is, ANYTHING you can imagine and draw, no matter how curvy or complex, is produced with fantastic accuracy. Also, multiple quantites of parts is a simple matter of course. For simple parts, especially one of a kind, you would be tempted to do them by hand instead of going through all this extra work. One caution: You will want a metal bending brake very soon after you have NC plasma capability. The combination makes your garage a real fabrication shop.

To answer the concern about interfacing with the plasma power source, even if using a hand-held torch mounted in the CNC table gantry: I simply opened the plasma power box, found the torch leads and traced them to where they plug to one of the circuit boards, removed the plug, wire-wrapped a couple leads onto the posts in the circuit board, re-installed the torch plug onto the posts, routed the leads out of the cabinet thru the louvers in back, added a plug, and it plugs onto my controller board for the plasma table. When the computer sends a "torch start" command, the controller board closes a tiny relay, which connects the two leads.

The TD cutmaster 81 is about 60 amps, if I recall correctly, and will CNC cut 3/4" plate with pretty good results. For CNC use, you should de-rate your plasma by about half. In other words, if the literature says it will cut 1 inch, figure that on the CNC table it will actually do 1/2" with good quality. I cannot really explain to you why this is true, but true it certainly is.

 

[yomax4]

Good point. In Automation the ratings change. Same with is true between hand held Torch and Automation Torch Cutting or Mig on Robots. The ratings are based on How many inches per minute something can cut it's rated thickness. In Plasma,
The unit should be able to cut it's rated capacity at 10" per minute. TD exceedes its rating.

 

[lostcause]

i can't say for sure about this, but are you sure that you can't cut as thick with automated, or you can't pierce as thick with automated? generally, all cnc table operations will begin with a pierce and then cut the shape. it seems that the pierce operation will work at around 50% of the rated cut thickness. anyone who has ever used oa torches knows this. trying to burn a hole in the middle of a thick piece of steel is not as easy as starting a cut at an edge. i'd have to assume that if you can position the plasma torch right at the edge to start, you could cut up to the rated thickness with an automated torch.

 

[Mightypoo0]

Have you looked at Hypertherm, they invented the plasma cutting technology and thats all they make and there priced about the same. I have a Hypertherm 30 and it cuts 1/4 plate steel great, 3/8 okay 1/2" max, and it is about the size of a battery boosth box.

 

[yomax4]

I can send you some cut specs from hand held vs Automated. ( I sell the stuff ) Yes, It will cut as thick..But not as fast as Automation Standards call for. If you want to overlook an inch ot two per minute in cut speeds, Sure, Handheld is the same as Automated. The guy who posed that Hypertherm invented the Plasma Process needs to study up. TD is in ite 53rd year and offers Industry leading Warranty. :thumbsup:

 

[jimcolt]

Plasma cutting was invented and patented by Union Carbide Corp (later to become Linde, then L-Tec, then Esab) in 1957. Thermal dynamics started up in 1960 or 61, and Hypertherm was founded in 1968. Hypertherm is the largest plasma system producer today. Hypertherm went through the economic downturn without laying off a single employee, and is employee owned.

As far as comparing the Cutmaster 52 to the Hypertherm units....the Hypertherm Powermax1000 has more available power in killowatts and is conservatively rated....it will cut thicker than advertised. The 45 has less power than the 53, however if the user is interested in 1/2 and thinner cutting it may be a better choice with its lower price and smaller size. Hypertherm consumables are available at over 2000 welding distribution stores in N America, and the consumables are easily available.

Jim Colt