Backhoe The great backhoe dilema

RyanC · Aug 6, 2004

I (like many others it seems) am pondering the difficult decision to make the "investment" in a backhoe for my JD4200 (26hp, 4wd hydro,72mmm,FEL).
The two major jobs for which I am trying to justify the purchase are:

1) Waterproof my existing basement.
My wife and I would like to finish off the basement, but it is not currently the most flood-free. I would like to dig around the perimiter, seal the walls with a Firestone pond liner, and lay new foundation drains run off to gravity drain. This is a standard 8' basement with a perimeter of ~140'.

2) Build a swimming pond with stone waterfall.
This would likely be about 20' x 30' x 8'dp (bowl shaped).

The question is rent? or buy?
Can a compact LBH do the jobs I want? If I rent, it could be mini-excavator for basement, and full-size LBH for lake.

I would really like to be able to justify a new hydraulic/testostorone powered tool/toy, but $7k+ for a JD 47or48 is not an insignificant purchase for me. Especially if it can't do the jobs mentioned above.
If a compact LBH can do my projects, what does everyone think about some of the ~$3-5k priced hoes? Is Green worth 3k more green?

I've been reading posts here for a while, and you guys are great! I hope that someone can offer some wisdom which will clear this up for me. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Thanks
~R~

AndyMA · Aug 6, 2004

( 1) Waterproof my existing basement.
My wife and I would like to finish off the basement, but it is not currently the most flood-free. I would like to dig around the perimiter, seal the walls with a Firestone pond liner, and lay new foundation drains run off to gravity drain. This is a standard 8' basement with a perimeter of ~140'. )
That's a lot of digging for a small backhoe on a small machine. I've had a backhoe in that class before and I think you'll be it at for many days. I also think you 'll have to dig a ramp to get the depth you need. Notice I didn't say you couldn't do it. Just would take some creativity and patience. (and hope you don't run into anything big)

Andy

RoyJackson · Aug 6, 2004

"1) Waterproof my existing basement...."

That's mighty close to the house for an inexperienced back hoe operator! You could do some serious damage during the learning curve.

For both projects you mention, it'd be cheaper to hire someone to do the excavation work or rent a machine.

Of course, you would be able to do the backfilling with your 4200.

And, working in a deep, narrow trench isn't for everyone. That can be a very dangerous bit of work without the proper shoring and experience.

SPIKER · Aug 6, 2004

I agree with the others, doing either with the CUT hoe would be doable but on the end of not really worth the effort cosidering the initial cost of the HOE you coul dhire it done and not have to do more than pop the top of a beer. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Mark M
/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

MMM · Aug 7, 2004

A CUT hoe will be miserably insufficient for big jobs, but could be done if you can find one for your tractor that'll dig 9' flat bottom.A lot of guys buy a 10-15K good used TLB and do the projects, then turn around and sell them- sometimes even at a profit. Need to know what you're buying though.

RayH · Aug 7, 2004

For the job of digging around the foundation, I dont see how you can efficiently do it with a CUT backhoe. You need a mini trackhoe that you can offset the arm so you can pull it right up against the wall and dig from there. You will have one heck of a time getting up against the wall with a tractor without causing lots of colateral damage to the rest of the yard. If you havent operated a backhoe before, be aware, there is a learning curve. Figure at least one day you wont do much valuable digging until you get used to it, especially in close quarters, like up against your house.
A tractor backhoe is better suited for the pond but it will take you awhile and when your done, you will be more comfortable on the backhoe. That would be a good learning project. If you need it done by a certain date, get a full sized backhoe in there and get it done. I know, I just finished a job at my neighbors house that was too big for my little backhoe. It was frustrating because I felt I was just picking at it. In retrospect, I should have bit the bullet and rented a mini excavator

Boondox · Aug 7, 2004

Ryan -- As a backhoe owner myself with a couple of years experience and enough finesse to use the hoe for picking up after the dogs...I still have to agree with the others. With the outriggers down, the hoe would be at least 3 feet away from the foundation, so forget about a nice trench with neat sides; you'd be forced to nibble away the entire length of the house. A mini excavator or (not sure of the dimensions of your walls) a big sucker with enough reach to do the job from one end of the house, would be the way to go. And my vote would be to hire the job out.

Pete

Egon · Aug 7, 2004

For the basement the trench is deep enough that either it should be shored or backsloped to avoid cave ins. A larger hoe working with the dipper is much better suited for this job. As others have stated, contract this portion out as it's serious work and requires operator skill.

For the other portion of your projects it's a question of which takes your fancy. Spend money on equipment and do it yourself or rent a large machine for the job.

Perhaps price out the house work first as that is important and then go from there.

Remember the drainage should have granular material and the trench backfilled in small lifts and compacted. And if a trench is involved make sure proper shoring is in place as back fill around a basement may not be stable material.

Egon

Bob_Skurka · Aug 7, 2004

Ryan, I am a long time and vocal critic of smaller tractor mounted mounted backhoes and usually I take a lot of grief for my position. As there is a Kubota B2910 with Great Bend backhoe at my disposal 24 hours a day, I can tell you I just dug a 40' by 4' by 4' trench in June of this year, to rebuild a retaining wall and I did it with a rented mini-excavator in one easy afternoon of work. Had I used the smaller tractor mounted hoe, I estimated it would have taken full 3 weekends and several evenings to do the same job. The rental fee was under $250, it was delivered at noon Saturday and picked up about 8am Monday; I was done before dinner Saturday evening.

OkieG · Aug 7, 2004

Build a swimming pond... 

I don't think either of the jobs you have are great candidates for a small tractor BH. Perhaps you could excavate the pond with a small BH, but the time consumption would be enormous. A 47 BH won't reach down 8', and I don't think a 48 hoe will fit on your tractor. I believe the 48 just barely gets down to the 8' depth range, anyway.

I had the pleasure of watching a pond about the size of yours being built a couple years ago. The pond is next to the road I drive along to work every day. The tractor was a Ford/NH and looked to be about 60hp. Only a front loader was used. A dirt ramp was used for the tractor to get into and out of the excavation. The project went several days before the digging was finished.

OkieG

Donman · Aug 7, 2004

One of the biggest problems with these small backhoes is not the digging but the dumping. I had a small backhoe for a Bobcat skidsteer that dug really good but could not dump far enough away from from the hole I made. You can get pretty good at using the bucket curl to push the pile further away as you are dumping each bucket full but even then you are limited to fairly shallow excavations before your dump pile encroaches on the excavation.

RyanC · Aug 7, 2004

I guess it's true what they say. "Advice is something you ask for when you already know the answer, but wish you didn't"

I figured the basement thing was going to be difficult with the TLB, and RayH, you said it well. I would have to re-position so many times, and nibble away that it would A) take a long time B) leave many chances to cause more damage cost than what I am saving by doing it myself.

The comments about the lake digging are good too. Lot of dirt to move a large distance for a small machine.

I guess I'll have to start thinking of a different new toy to buy.

Thanks everyone for your help.

~R~

Gary_in_Indiana · Aug 7, 2004

Ryan,

I have a 4200 with a BH and while I used it a lot when I first got it for loading and unloading trucks and trailers, etc., I would never consider using it for the jobs you describe. Mine was on my tractor when I bought it used and was almost a 'throw-in' when I got my machine. I would never spend thousands to own one. Honestly, since I've taken it off to use my 3PH attachments, I've never put it back on.

Henro · Aug 7, 2004

Honestly, since I've taken it off to use my 3PH attachments, I've never put it back on.


Wow Gary! I'm amazed...I guess it all depends...

I am really glad I added a backhoe to my tractor purchase two years ago. But I agree...it probably does not make a lot of sense for the original posters needs...I doubt my back hoe would work very well for digging out the side of my foundation...

I have had better luck with landscaping next to my pond, doing something that a skid steer faild to accomplish a few years ago.

I use my backhoe a lot. But that could be just because I have the need to do so.

In the end I am really glad I bought one. But again that is just me and my personal needs.

Our different experiences just serves to illustrate how much a backhoe decision really depends on the induvidual considering one...

Now I would say the my backhoe may not be cost effective, but still I am glad I have it. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

v8dave · Aug 8, 2004

Around here in Northern California the pool companies use skid steer loaders to dig swiming pools. They can get these through the narrow side yards prevalent now-a-days in the big house small lot communities popping up everywhere.

I was amazed at how these skid steers can dig a sizeable hole.

Looks like most of the recommendations here are for a rental unit or hire it done. You should be able to operate the rental skid steer to dig the pool. Don't underestimate the problem of disposing/transporting of the excavated dirt. A skid steer helps transport the dirt quickly--a win all around.

Gary_in_Indiana · Aug 8, 2004

'Now I would say the my backhoe may not be cost effective, but still I am glad I have it." 

That describes my feelings exactly. I guess, to be fair, I ought to say that I did use the heck out of that backhoe the first couple years I had it. Maybe that's why I haven't used it any lately.

I have a feeling it'll go back on when mowing season ends as I do have a couple things in mind for it then.

pekabu · Aug 8, 2004

I have a backhoe for my 24 hp NH. If you really have just these two projects, renting a mini excavator would be a better decision. Just the constant repositioing would make the job go forever!

A couple of years ago I rented a bobcat 325 mini excavator. It was stronger and had better reach than my current bh. It was really a good piece of equipiment. You will be able to get closer to the house, and dig deeper. It was about $350 for 10 hours.

For me, I have had ton of smaller jobs around the house.

PineRidge · Aug 8, 2004

I invested in a BH for my New Holland and I think it has come in real darn handy for more than a couple of my needs. But just the same I also don't think I would recommend one for the work that you describe. I think that renting a machine capable of your requirements would be more in line with good judgment. A backhoe represents a sizable investment and as such may need extra justification. Obviously they aren't for everybody in my opinion.