Texas Heat!

[jinman]

The DC-10s are not popular airplanes with the pilots I know. The freight version had outward swinging cargo doors that had to be held shut with strong locks. Several of these failed, leading to explosive decompression at altitude. Inward doors are the norm. The inward opening door seals tighter and tighter as altitude is gained and cabin pressure differential becomes greater. They also take up cargo space when open and must have a clearway to close. The DC-10's design allows more cargo with the possibilty for catastrophic failure.

The earlier DC-10s and even the retrofitted models were susceptible to multiple hydraulic failures. If an engine went bad and exploded, it could render all three of the hydraulic systems inoperable. Some safety features were added to the systems on later aircraft, but they were not 100% effective.

I have no first hand knowledge, but I suspect the DC-10s are in use today because they can be bought at bargain prices compared to other similar capable airplanes. Getting and keeping them airworthy seems to be the rub.

 

[charlz]

According to an article I saw posted on another site, there are 30-40 of them sitting in California <snip>

FYI, those are P3's, not DC10's

 

[Western]

Great info on the fire retardant!! The fire we had in Wise county, the Fire fighters where saying it (retardant) was having little effect since the humidity was low and the vegetation was so dry. I remember thinking they use that stuff in other dry climates too, and it works?

My lawn grasses have responded to watering like it's springtime with the cooler temps, getting twice as much growth now with half as much water. Weatherman say's continued dry conditions for the next 10 day's, possibly break more records on Monday, but only 101 degree's.

As dry as it is, I don't see where temp's make any difference on the fire danger, I have been getting small amounts of "dew" , but doesn't last long.I wont even mow my road frontage because of the possibilities.

 

[Kyle_in_Tex]

FWIW, we have no rain is sight as the storm down by the yucatan is headed into Mexico...

 

[jinman]

Yeah, thanks Robert for the descriptions of fire retardants. It's nice to know that a red swath won't be a dead swath by next spring.:thumbsup:

 

[RobertN]

We had a fire nearby about 10 years ago. It was approaching a $$$ Million dollar+ house(actually, a number of them...). Although there were engine crews there, a decision was made for a retardant drop or two.

A short time later, this guys comes flying up to a Battalion Chief in his golf cart. Him and his cart were speckled with red. He was yelling up a storm at the BC, expletives and all. His house had got a pretty good shot of retardant...

One of the other firefighters that was conferring with the BC, said he looked the guy straight in the face, and asked "Do you prefer red or black?". The guy jumped back on his golf cart and left in a huff...

FWIW, I have helped clean engines that took a direct hit. I had to climb up on top of the hose bed;it was slippery as all get out. Especially on top of a tall engine... Have also had to climb over rocks/boulders on fire scenes, that had been hit. Again, some of the most slippery stuff you ever saw.

Yeah, thanks Robert for the descriptions of fire retardants. It's nice to know that a red swath won't be a dead swath by next spring.:thumbsup:

 

[RobertN]

The retardant definitely helps. It has wetting agents to help cover, and absorb.

Most engines either have foam tanks that mix foam at the pump, or will batch mix by dumping concentrate in the tank. It makes a HUGE difference on a wildland fire. It is a wetting agent and helps the water absorb in the vegetation/wood/et-al. I have demonstrated this to the boys in our Scout Troop when we put out campfires. They'll use a lot of water to put their fire out. For the adult leader campfire, I'll put a little dish soap in with a bucket of water; it puts the fire out right away.

The temps affect the dewpoint. That is why it is best to do any mowing/cutting before 10am. The dewpoint is high, as is the fuel moisture content. Of course, there are extreme behavior(IE my area is in red flag conditions this weekend). The dewpoint and fuel moisture is just plain low, because the conditions are so dry.

I would not run my mower right now. A weedeater maybe. But I would still do it at daybreak, and stop by 9amr r so no, matter what...

Great info on the fire retardant!! The fire we had in Wise county, the Fire fighters where saying it (retardant) was having little effect since the humidity was low and the vegetation was so dry. I remember thinking they use that stuff in other dry climates too, and it works?

My lawn grasses have responded to watering like it's springtime with the cooler temps, getting twice as much growth now with half as much water. Weatherman say's continued dry conditions for the next 10 day's, possibly break more records on Monday, but only 101 degree's.

As dry as it is, I don't see where temp's make any difference on the fire danger, I have been getting small amounts of "dew" , but doesn't last long.I wont even mow my road frontage because of the possibilities.

 

[joemd11]

About the DC-10. Most pilots I know (myself included) loved flying the airplane.It did have some issues that resulted in some bad accidents. Some of those were design issues and some were maintenance issues. Once these were addressed, it was a pretty good airplane.
All cargo doors open outwards. There isnt enough room for them to open inwards. Some entry doors open outward(ie Airbus) and some open inward(Boeing). The configuration depends on the airframe.
DC-10's (and most other aircraft) were not designed to drop water on a fire from low altitudes. This puts a lot of strain on a airframe that was intended to carry people from point A to point B at 36000 feet. So, extra mx and inspections are required for tankers and this runs into big $$$.
I hope you all down in Texas get some relief soon.
Cheers,
Joe

 

[bindian]

The DC-10s are not popular airplanes with the pilots I know. The freight version had outward swinging cargo doors that had to be held shut with strong locks. Several of these failed, leading to explosive decompression at altitude. Inward doors are the norm. The inward opening door seals tighter and tighter as altitude is gained and cabin pressure differential becomes greater. They also take up cargo space when open and must have a clearway to close. The DC-10's design allows more cargo with the possibilty for catastrophic failure.

The earlier DC-10s and even the retrofitted models were susceptible to multiple hydraulic failures. If an engine went bad and exploded, it could render all three of the hydraulic systems inoperable. Some safety features were added to the systems on later aircraft, but they were not 100% effective.

I have no first hand knowledge, but I suspect the DC-10s are in use today because they can be bought at bargain prices compared to other similar capable airplanes. Getting and keeping them airworthy seems to be the rub.

The middle engine exploded because of a flawed manufacturing process. The fan disk had been inspected before and the flaws (cracks that grew a little every flight) were missed by the technician doing the crack inspections.
Post-crash analysis of the crack surfaces showed the presence of a penetrating fluorescent dye used to detect cracks during maintenance. The presence of the dye indicated that the crack was present and should have been detected at a prior inspection. The detection failure arose from poor attention to human factors in United Airlines' specification of maintenance processes.

Exploding engines can be catastrophic. Years ago Sikorsky S-76s were having engines explode taking out the other engine, the tail rotor driveshaft, the aircraft main battery and AC and DC junction boxes. Several S-76s were lost over water and not recovered. Finally, one exploded and crashed over land. The engine pieces were recovered and it was found to be a design flaw in a new part. It was a shaft without a hole in it for oil. The new design omitted the oil hole. PHI sold their old shafts as scrap. Air Logistics kept their old parts. Air Logistics quickly reinstalled the old shafts in their engines and no more explosions. I, myself, modified 4 S-76s with shields around the engines, cowlings, and driveshaft. Both of these aircraft were safe designs, just human events lead to their engine explosions.

Airliners have inward swinging passenger doors and baggage compartment doors. These doors are held tight against stops when pressurized. These doors can not be opened in flight, unless all pressurization is lost.

Freighter aircraft have main deck (passenger deck) cargo doors that open out ward and swing up out of the way. They have hydraulic locks with safety over ride mechanical locks with visible mechanical locking indicators as a backup to warning lights. Early designs could be opened in flight. But these had all been changed by Airworthiness Directives (ADs). ADs can not be ignored by an operator. They have to be complied with or the aircraft is grounded. Unless inward swinging main deck cargo doors came out in the last couple of years, I have never seen or heard of a main deck (or upper) cargo door swinging inward. Boeing and Douglas all had outward swinging main deck cargo doors. 747 freighters have the nose swing up and outward to allow straight in loading. They also can have an optional outswinging main deck cargo door. Larger aircraft's baggage compartment doors are larger and freight is carried in them with special half and quarter size "igloos".

ADs have also addressed loosing all hydraulic fluid in a failure. Inline fuses are put in the systems to shut fluids off with a sudden high loss of fluid. We change fuses based on a time limit of so many cycles.
A cycle is one takeoff and one landing.
I have known pilots that don't like certain designed airplanes, but they still flew them. They are as safe as anything humans build.

 

[jinman]

About the DC-10. Most pilots I know (myself included) loved flying the airplane.It did have some issues that resulted in some bad accidents. Some of those were design issues and some were maintenance issues. Once these were addressed, it was a pretty good airplane.
All cargo doors open outwards. There isnt enough room for them to open inwards. Some entry doors open outward(ie Airbus) and some open inward(Boeing). The configuration depends on the airframe.
DC-10's (and most other aircraft) were not designed to drop water on a fire from low altitudes. This puts a lot of strain on a airframe that was intended to carry people from point A to point B at 36000 feet. So, extra mx and inspections are required for tankers and this runs into big $$$.
I hope you all down in Texas get some relief soon.
Cheers,
Joe

Yep! I checked with my pilot friend who told me that once they got those hydraulic problems fixed with fuses, the plane wasn't bad. However, he said given the choice, he'd take flyin' a Boeing any day.

 

[Bird]

If it ain't one thing, it's another. In spite of the fact that I've been watering the yard, and I especially water right around the foundation when I do, we've got two doors that don't swing shut and latch quite the way they have been doing. So this afternoon, I went and bought 3 soaker hoses and have started them around the house.

The above was from Sept. 1. And I decided to get a 4th soaker hose and put around my foundation. I think I ran the water a couple of hours each of a couple of days and then about an hour a day each day; skipped one day. No visible damage or signs of foundation problem and now those doors swing shut and latch as they should.

 

[bindian]

Yep! I checked with my pilot friend who told me that once they got those hydraulic problems fixed with fuses, the plane wasn't bad. However, he said given the choice, he'd take flyin' a Boeing any day.

Normally I say this about Airbus's.............if it ain't Boeing, I ain't going.
hugs, Brandi

 

[bindian]

The above was from Sept. 1. And I decided to get a 4th soaker hose and put around my foundation. I think I ran the water a couple of hours each of a couple of days and then about an hour a day each day; skipped one day. No visible damage or signs of foundation problem and now those doors swing shut and latch as they should.

Bird,
I think I am going to need to get my mobile home re leveled. My front storm door will not shut all the way and some of the cinder blocks have a lean to them.
hugs, Brandi

 

[Bird]

Bird,
I think I am going to need to get my mobile home re leveled. My front storm door will not shut all the way and some of the cinder blocks have a lean to them.
hugs, Brandi

Been there and done that, Brandi, both in Navarro County and in Coppell, TX, in Dallas County. I think that's just a regular maintenance item on mobile homes in Texas unless you have a concrete slab poured first to park it on.

 

[txdon]

From the discussion earlier in this thread about VFD being turned away, below are the myths being circulated and the guidelines in Texas.


From the State Firemans and Fire Marshals Assoc. of Texas
SFFMA Fire/EMS Community • View topic - Notices for Firefighter Assistance Needed in Texas

by admin on Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:07 pm

Fire Service,

Evidently there is some very strange rumors, calls, etc being made about assisting Texas Fire Departments with the devastating wildfires.

To dispell any myths:
*There is NOT and ALL call for any firefighter, retired firefighter or want to be firefighter
*There is not a phone number that the public or firefighters call to offer assistance
*Some of our members have reported receiving an automated call asking for firefighters. We DON'T know where this is coming from or what company is doing it. If you get a call like this please let us know.

Remember - -
*Resources MUST be requested by the department needing assistance
*Current firefighters in a recognized fire department shoud request the Chief to offer assistance to the TIFMAS Regional Coordinator. If you don't know who your TIFMAS Coordinator is or would like to offer your department's assistance please email TIFMAS State Coordinator Joe Florentino at jflorentino@littleelm.org
*For Wildland deployments, S130/190 class is highly recommended but not required
*Personnel should be self sufficient for 72 hours
*Deployments are typically 7days

If you have any questions please contact Director Barron at cbarron @ sffma.org

 

[two_bit_score]

22 people 'unaccounted for' in Bastrop.

Austin news, sports, weather, Longhorns, business | Statesman.com

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[WM75Guy]

Here are the TFS and DEM reports for today. The number and magnitude of the fires in Texas is unprecedented. I went to the Fire Academy in the summer of 1980 and that year did not compare to this year.

ftp://ftp.txdps.state.tx.us/dem/sitrep/Texas Forest Service Morning Operations Brief 09112011.pdf

ftp://ftp.txdps.state.tx.us/dem/sitrep/Wild Fire Danger SITREP 119 091011.pdf

The local fire departments and the Texas Forest Service do a great job day in and day out. Funding is always an issue, whether it be from the local fundraiser or government grants. Most VFDs are not tax supported, living on donations, minor contributions from cities or counties, or grants. Politics always crop up during situations like this. It's easy to sit back and point fingers about who is to blame.

Self deploying to a major incident has always been a problem. Some one shows up without going thru proper channels, gets turned away and then makes a big splash in the media, who are looking for these type of stories. Without being requested thru mutual aid or state deployment procedures, the persons or equipment is not eligible for reimbursement, may be freelancing on the fireground and usually is not trained or equipped to do the job. They can be a danger to themselves and others.

If you look at the reports, there are many fires going on right now. For the properly trained and equipped personnel and equipment, there is an opportunity for deployment.

As far as the statements that FEMA or the USFS has come in and taken over, the local emergency management and the TFS have established a unified incident command at the Bastrop fire. The national incident management team reports to the incident command. The feds cannot take over unless the local or state government gives up command.

 

[ultrarunner]

Here are the TFS and DEM reports for today. The number and magnitude of the fires in Texas is unprecedented. I went to the Fire Academy in the summer of 1980 and that year did not compare to this year.

ftp://ftp.txdps.state.tx.us/dem/sitrep/Texas Forest Service Morning Operations Brief 09112011.pdf

ftp://ftp.txdps.state.tx.us/dem/sitrep/Wild Fire Danger SITREP 119 091011.pdf

The local fire departments and the Texas Forest Service do a great job day in and day out. Funding is always an issue, whether it be from the local fundraiser or government grants. Most VFDs are not tax supported, living on donations, minor contributions from cities or counties, or grants. Politics always crop up during situations like this. It's easy to sit back and point fingers about who is to blame.

Self deploying to a major incident has always been a problem. Some one shows up without going thru proper channels, gets turned away and then makes a big splash in the media, who are looking for these type of stories. Without being requested thru mutual aid or state deployment procedures, the persons or equipment is not eligible for reimbursement, may be freelancing on the fireground and usually is not trained or equipped to do the job. They can be a danger to themselves and others.

If you look at the reports, there are many fires going on right now. For the properly trained and equipped personnel and equipment, there is an opportunity for deployment.

As far as the statements that FEMA or the USFS has come in and taken over, the local emergency management and the TFS have established a unified incident command at the Bastrop fire. The national incident management team reports to the incident command. The feds cannot take over unless the local or state government gives up command.

During the Lake Tahoe fire storm a few years back much was made of the fact that private home owner insurance companies like CSAA hired private fire crews to protect insured property...

The commander had made a statement that he did not have the resources to protect every home or cabin and then the media reported volunteer departments from other areas were turned away...

I've never heard of a private insurance company getting involved like this in the midst of a raging fire... CSAA even called me offering assistance such as sending out a crew to establish a fire break, fight a fire or help to move contents to safety... fortunately, the services offered were not needed.

 

[WM75Guy]

Cold front coming in. Tuesday's high has been downgraded from 106 to 103.

 

[300UGUY]

Cold front coming in. Tuesday's high has been downgraded from 106 to 103.

Wow. I never in my life have seen temps like that. When it gets over about 95, I just stay inside. It has gotten to 100, maybe 101, but that would be highly unusual. Of course, -20F would be unusual for you guys. BTW, we stay inside then too!!!