Texas 119 gallon max gasoline carry without permit

[LBrown59]

1*Did you read the document?
2*Personally I think the document is NOT correct.

1*Puter won't bring it up /hence the reason that I asked ?
2*Or it applies to commercial operators engaged in the business of transporting such liquids instead of private individuals

 

[LBrown59]

- why not have it delivered?
1*I guess I just like the flexibility and independence a transfer tank offers.
2*When an emergency arises whether ice storm, tornado, gas shortages/outages then normal supply/distribution/availability/schedules are destroyed. 3*but the home/life/survival needs of myself, wife, father (95), son (disability), another son/wife/grandson (1 yr old with medical problems).
4*Meeting their needs requires I be able to keep various vehicles and generators running, perhaps for days.
5*I do in fact have a tank on a stand

why have it delivered?
saves time and fuel required to go after it.
Don't have to load and unload a pick up with the fuel.
1*I have my fuel delivered but i still have this option when if - needed / desired.
I have 4 Spare drums 2 55 gallon ones and 2 30 gallon ones and can haul up to 115 gallons per trip which keeps me under the 119 gallon limit.
If i want to break it down into 2 trips i can haul 170 gallons between the 2 trips.
2*In such a situation you probably would not be able to get to the fuel guy for the very same reason he can't get to you.
3 true.
4*The best way to meet this need is to always keep a fair reserve of fuel on hand.
Home delivery is another wepon in that arsenal
and gives you 2 options for meeting that need instead of just one.
Why not have 2 methods for restocking the fuel supply when it don't cost any more money or effort than just one way?
5*I have a fuel storage and transfer set up and this is how i keep it supplied.

 

[texasjohn]

Final, economic answer regarding delivery of gasoline to a 300 gallon tank on the place:

I had a hard time finding somebody who still does this, however, the Granger Pit Stop will, with some coaxing, deliver gas ... currently for $1.95/gallon plus a delivery charge. That's about $.16 more than at local gas stations.

So, round numbers, that's an extra cost of $50 plus delivery charge.
Doable, but not what I'm interested in.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I think there is a bigger issue than safety, its $$$$. My dad lives in San Diego and he says he can drive over the border to Mexico and get fuel cheaper. A lot cheaper. He says every guy with a Dodge Diesel has a 150 gallon tank in the back and they were going over every day and filling it and bringing it home when gas was $4.50 a gallon. They started cracking down on them, not for safety reasons but $$$$ reasons.

Its our government at work. We have the best politicans money can buy.

Chris

 

[Gator6x4]

I think there is a bigger issue than safety, its $$$$. My dad lives in San Diego and he says he can drive over the border to Mexico and get fuel cheaper. A lot cheaper. He says every guy with a Dodge Diesel has a 150 gallon tank in the back and they were going over every day and filling it and bringing it home when gas was $4.50 a gallon. They started cracking down on them, not for safety reasons but $$$$ reasons.

Its our government at work. We have the best politicans money can buy.

Chris

I don't know if it was safety or cost. I would think strict enforcement on transportation of gasoline has more to do with safety than cost. The article below addresses the dangers of gasoline. Using the formula in the article of the vapor from one cup of gasoline is the equivalent to the explosive force of five (5) pounds of dynamite means 100 hundred gallons would have a person transporting a potential explosive device of 8000 pounds of dynamite. I am sure the explosion of 8000 pounds of dynamite would wake up any neighborhood and give ones insurance carrier a speech impediment.


Timothy G. Prather
University of Tennessee Extension

Many of us must store some gasoline around our homes to operate lawnmowers, tillers, chainsaws and so on. But if stored improperly, a fire or explosion could result, destroying the house and causing injury or death. Gasoline is a product designed to fuel internal combustion engines. It is a highly volatile liquid, and its vapors can be ignited easily by a spark, flame or other hot object. When mixed with air in the right proportions, the vapor of one cup of gasoline has the explosive power of about five pounds of dynamite, enough destructive force to destroy any house or car.

 

[ChrsDrn]

That is one heck of a document- if it is correct then all of us carrying gas in a 5 gallon plastic jug are violating the law

And what about the pic below? I have two a 10 gallon and a 15 gallon.

That doc was designed for the telecom industry. the trucks they carry fuel in are most likely bucket trucks that weigh over 10,000 lbs federal DOT are much more stringent than that for private individuals, OSHA regs also have to be taken into consideration, I believe that a dead man type of valve is require on gas cans to be OSHA compliant. we have 1 gallon metal cans that we use to fill our chain saw ect.
Chris

 

[rdbrumfield]

I am surprised that they still make plastic gascans. Plastic stores static electricity, be sure to ground them before filling your tank with one. just dragging it across the liner in your pu bed will put a charge in one. think of it, if you pull a plastic comb through your hair a few times it will get a charge. Filling my airplane I take precaution to ground it.

And by the way, getting the Hazmat now days is a hassle. About 90 bucks for them to run an FBI check on you, then of course the test, 10 bucks then a new license, another 10 bucks. My CDL class A with triples, tanker, Hazmat and motorcycle is like paying the national debt. With some of these trucks, you need a hazmat endorsement just to drive one as the fuel tank exceeds 119 gallon.

 

[Diamondpilot]

All I know is it makes no sense. I sell boats for a part time job and the smallest fuel tank I have on my lot is 80 gallons. Most the boats I sell have 150 to 200 gallon tanks. If it were such a safety issue they would crack down on these tanks also. I still feel it has more to due with $$$$. It always comes down to $$$$.

Chris

 

[RWolf]

Once a tank is mounted permenantly in a vehicle (car,truck,boat) it doesn't fall under the same guidelines as a transfer tank which by function is a "temporary" tank. There may be $$$ involved but I think it's more to discourage the average joe from rolling down the street with a trailer and a 1000gal. tank and losing control and causing a spill or fire. At a limit of 119 gals. the average joe still has a fair amount of control and that amount generally won't overload any vehicle. Now there are some out there that qualify for the darwin award.

 

[Wis Bang]

I've been reading this thread for a while and I had to join up and comment. The 119 gal limit comes from the Feds! I am a safety director in the trucking industry industry. My first trucking job was for a fuel hauler & I have close to 20 years in the Tank Transport Industry.

Most states hae adopted the Federal Haz Mat regulations [CFR40 172.102] 'in toto' meaning the entire scope of the regulations.

119 gal is the threshold of a BULK package. Bulk packages [tankers & IBC's] are designed and constructed to DOT 'specifications'. That means the materials, construction, venting, safety devices, etc. MUST meet specifications. So does a 55 gal drum but it is not a BULK package, look at the bottom and you will see the specification markings. for example the opentop metal drum used in Haz Waste cleanups is a DOT 17H. The packaging for Haz Mats is designed acording to POP [performance oriented packaging] and will have UN of DOT markings.

It is usually legal to transport up to 1000 LBS of Haz Mat without warning placards on the outside of the vehicle UNLESS you get over the 119 gal. Gasoline is around 6.3 LBS/gal so 119 gal is under the 1000 pounds.

So that's where the arbitrary 119 gal limit comes from.

Transporting ANY amount of Haz Mat, in commerce, requires a CDL w/ Haz Mat endorsement unless it falls under 'Materials of Trade' like the oxy-acetlene torch on a repairman's truck, etc is exempt. So would an individual hauling under 119 gal of gas for his own use.

Remember to ground the drums while you pump them out! Transfer hoses have a bonding wire that contacts the metal end fittings so the delivery hose is always has a ground path to control static. Anyone pumping gas needs a wire from the source to the receiving container. Also keep your discharge hose as far inside the receiving container as possible so it gets covered quickly by the transfering liquid as the splash from the product falling into the container can generate static. Gasoline tankers are 'bottom-loaded' to control static and vapor vented back to the source as fire protection.

 

[texasjohn]

Wiz Bang, good info... welcome to TBN... good to have your experience here!

since I first posted, I've seen several transfer tanks that were marked as 118 gallons...so seems like the manufacturers are aware of the rules (as well they should be)

I plan to be pumping from a transfer tank bolted in the back of my pickup into an overhead steel tank on a supporting platform. I know that the pickup tires insulate the tank from ground. Should I rely on the metal nozzle in contact with the inlet of my metal tank sitting on the ground and the wire inside the hose connected to the transfer tank to be sufficient grounding? Or should I create a separate wire with battery clamps on it and connect that, too, between the transfer tank and overhead tank prior to offloading fuel? Piltoon says this is standard aviation practice. Jinman agrees grounding is a good idea.

Is it a different answer/risk for diesel vs gasoline?

Is there a different answer/risk for a steel vs aluminum transfer tank?

Reason for above questions is that I have separate setups for diesel and gasoline. Also, have both steel and aluminum transfer tanks.

Interestingly, the aluminum tank (purchased used) has a label on it that it is for transport of diesel OR gasoline.

All my steel tanks say they are ONLY for diesel. .... anybody know SPECIFICALLY what makes the difference between a transfer tank for gasoline vs diesel?

 

[Wis Bang]

Make sure the hose has a bonding wire, I was talking about the 3" & 4" gasoline hoses used on tankers...

I'd run a ground, bare copper wire, clamped onto the source, pump, and receiver [unless the pump is in the source] for the gas. Diesel isn't as succecptable to statlc [diesel flashpoint is 141 degrees F] while gasoline is around -35 to -45 degrees which is why you can start your car @ -20...

Get the transfer hose deep into the receiver so it gets covered w/ liquid quickly. Flammable products like Petroleum Solvents & Alcohols get 'top' loaded into tankers w/ a aluminum 'spiller', a multi jointed pipe arm made to extend close to the bottom of the tanker when inserted into the manway. These units are bonded to ground too and we used to see blue static sparks dancing on the product just from the friction of the product moving in at a couple gal a minute. You will regret that experience if the two tanks are not grounded to each other and to the earth.

Emergency response pump outs on the side of the highway use a ground rod , or a guardrail steel post, runing the ground from the loaded tank to the pump [mounted on the power unit] to the receiving tank to earth even when the hoses had bond wires...you can't be too careful w/ a flammable liquid.

 

[texasjohn]

Good info..... will use ground wire with gasoline for sure... don't want to see blue flickers

Flashpoint info.... makes the point!

 

[Wis Bang]

Flashpoint info.... makes the point!

I took a 'Firescience' class at the local community college on Flammables. It was mostly vol firefighters & a few transport people. It was taught by the head of Emergency Response for the state [ex USA Bomb Tech] and the entire first class was a refresher in molecular chemistry to explain how the atomic activity of a flammable liquid created the ideal conditions at the flashpoint to have ignition, the 'right amount beteen the LEL & UEL [upper and lower explosive level]. Think if it in terms of adjusting a carburator...

LEL = too rich - much more vapors than oxygen.
UEL = too lean - much more oxygen than vapors

everthing in between = perfect conditions for ignition [stoch].

The temperature where the liquid maintains the fire [auto ignition] is usually higher though gasoline's Auto Ign Temp is still below zero....

 

[lavacarancher]

OK, folks. So far Wis Bang has provided a reasonable explanation of rules for transporting fuel but I don't know if it applies in Texas. Can some one say definitively what the rules are for transporting fuel(gasoline and diesel)?
1. Where can I find the government (Texas) regulations for transporting up to 275 gallons of gasoline and 275 gallons of diesel fuel over about 100 miles to my ranch for storage and use as needed. Fuel will be for personal use.
2. Three years ago there were 3 distributors in my county who would deliver fuel and put it in my 300 gal overhead storage tanks. Now there are none.
3. Fuel will be transported in the back of my one ton PU in 275 gallon IBC totes. Private truck, not for hire, personal use.

Thanks in advance for the info.

 

[Soundguy]

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/nrcs144p2_043004.pdf

1-800-HMR-4922 is the national hazmat info line, give them a call. Texas DOT regs will not be less than federal regs. Most state dot mirror fed reg minimums.

 

[Deere Dude]

Just throw a tarp over it.

 

[Lelandwelds]

I've been reading this thread for a while and I had to join up and comment. The 119 gal limit comes from the Feds! I am a safety director in the trucking industry industry. My first trucking job was for a fuel hauler & I have close to 20 years in the Tank Transport Industry.

Most states hae adopted the Federal Haz Mat regulations [CFR40 172.102] 'in toto' meaning the entire scope of the regulations.

119 gal is the threshold of a BULK package. Bulk packages [tankers & IBC's] are designed and constructed to DOT 'specifications'. That means the materials, construction, venting, safety devices, etc. MUST meet specifications. So does a 55 gal drum but it is not a BULK package, look at the bottom and you will see the specification markings. for example the opentop metal drum used in Haz Waste cleanups is a DOT 17H. The packaging for Haz Mats is designed acording to POP [performance oriented packaging] and will have UN of DOT markings.

It is usually legal to transport up to 1000 LBS of Haz Mat without warning placards on the outside of the vehicle UNLESS you get over the 119 gal. Gasoline is around 6.3 LBS/gal so 119 gal is under the 1000 pounds.

So that's where the arbitrary 119 gal limit comes from.

Transporting ANY amount of Haz Mat, in commerce, requires a CDL w/ Haz Mat endorsement unless it falls under 'Materials of Trade' like the oxy-acetlene torch on a repairman's truck, etc is exempt. So would an individual hauling under 119 gal of gas for his own use.

Remember to ground the drums while you pump them out! Transfer hoses have a bonding wire that contacts the metal end fittings so the delivery hose is always has a ground path to control static. Anyone pumping gas needs a wire from the source to the receiving container. Also keep your discharge hose as far inside the receiving container as possible so it gets covered quickly by the transfering liquid as the splash from the product falling into the container can generate static. Gasoline tankers are 'bottom-loaded' to control static and vapor vented back to the source as fire protection.

The above quote is factual, logical, and non hysterical. Too bad some others were less so. Gasoline, propane, battery acid, radiological materials, xrays, sharp instruments, power tools, ladders, window glass, PTO, motor vehicles, second stories, sunlight, modern medicines, and ten thousand other things I won't make anyone read through are perfectly safe when used responsibly.

Getting shrill about reduntant ground wires, running with scissors or swimming after eating isn't productive. Diesel and gasoline are essential to our interests. Please promote facts and encourage reasonable safety practices. Some in the broader world need little excuse to severely curtail things they don't participate in or see value in.

In practice, the container weight is included in the limits. It can be argued but be ready for it.