Taking home a L4150 for test drive

[phlegm]

Slight snag in my plans.. they won't offer me *anything* for my 856. They stated that
"I think we're going to pass on taking in that unit. After Randy looked at it and put together a condition report there are just too many issues with the tractor. The unit would require a lot of reconditioning. We're not sure how much we would need to do to make the machine sellable"

ouch! Not even a low ball trade in offer..

Not to worry we are still in negotiations for the 4150, but now it sounds as if I need to work on selling the 856 privately (which sucks). He already told me that 'cash only' price will be less than the a sale with a trade in..

He's going to send me the mechanics report. I've already started calling around about the 3 peices of missing 'tin' that they were concerned about. He is also going to 'work on the numbers' for a cash sale of the 4150, and I am going to send him a list of my 'concerns' with the 4150 so that he knows where I am coming from.


My only real concerns with the 4150 (in order of care)
1. The hydraulic pump/system completely let me down once (I'd like a reman pump installed or concessions for that to happen)
2. The tach is missing the pointer needle
3. One rear tire is leaking fluid out by the valve stem
4. Cooling system (boil radiator)
5. (annoyance) but I need the grapple hooked up someplace else other than the only external hydraulic port.

And while not broken these are things that need to be kept in mind
Battery is 5yrs old
alternator is probably older than that
'mysterious' deisel fuel on top of engine

The tractor ordeal of 2010 trudges on..

-ron

 

[brain55]

My only real concerns with the 4150 (in order of care)
1. The hydraulic pump/system completely let me down once (I'd like a reman pump installed or concessions for that to happen)
2. The tach is missing the pointer needle
3. One rear tire is leaking fluid out by the valve stem
4. Cooling system (boil radiator)
5. (annoyance) but I need the grapple hooked up someplace else other than the only external hydraulic port.

There is no such thing as a remanufactured hydraulic pump for this machine. I would want to see a flow test on that pump and see what the deal is. The early machines had a problem cavitating the hydraulic pump because the suction was in an area of the transmission where the fluid was being churned up and causing aeration, they added a tube inside the transmission that moved the pick up further back into a calmer area of the transmission case.

They will have to replace the tachometer or possibly the whole instrument cluster to fix the broken needle. The L4150DT-N parts book has many of the assemblies broken down further than the plain L4150DT book does.

The tire thing should be no problem for them.

The cooling system in those machines are pretty reliable. I would imagine that worse case you/they can have the core rodded out or replaced far cheaper than the cost of a new radiator if that is the problem.

The hydraulics for the grapple will depend on their hydraulic competence and what you are willing to spend to have another valve installed.

If the battery tests okay you might be hard pressed to get them to replace it just because, unless it is a total deal breaker. The charging systems are virtually trouble free, many of those machines are still running the original alternator. Usually the voltage regulator will fail if there is a problem in the charging system.

Brian

 

[rbargeron]

I'll chime in to agree with Brian's points and to add a couple of my own. The L3 is a very rugged and long-lasting machine. But a lot can happen in 3600 hours. Initial build quality becomes less important than how the machine has been used and maintained. The pictures would indicate it has had a reasonably easy life. The testing you've done seems to support that idea - except for the hydraulics.

The hydraulic starvation event you described sounds like low oil level and maybe a partially plugged hydraulic filter. The filter is on the suction side of the system. Loosening it would allow oil to flow out, but that would not prove oil was able to flow through the filter to the pump supply pipe.

I believe the redesign of the L4150's hydraulic pickup point was prompted by air entrainment from the spinning gears in the transmission. The symptom was a "snapping" sound when cruising along at road speed. The fix was a longer internal pickup tube and a new shorter dipstick that requires more oil in the transmission (deeper pool). A new gasket is included - installation requires splitting the machine. I have one of these kits new if you go there.

Adding another valve is easy - an open-center valve can be added in the power-beyond hose that runs from the loader valve back to the hydraulic block under the tractor. The PB port is marked. Use a 1/2" min valve size so the thru-flow is not restricted when centered. The PB hose goes in one side and another hose continues to the block. The new valve(s) can run whatever you want.

This is admittedly the quick way to add a circuit - when the aux valve is moved off center, the 3-point hitch will temporarily not be powered, but that's not usually a problem. Centering the valve will restore 3ph lift. The dealer might not do it this way - since interaction between heavy loads on the 3ph and the aux circuit can't be predicted with certainty. So the dealer would likely install an aux valve which would itself have another PB port. Then a separate exhaust tube is needed. More plumbing = more bucks.

Have fun and good luck - Dick B

 

[rustedduck]

For $11,500, you should be able to buy a suitable used tractor
without concerns.

 

[rbargeron]

Ron,

In my post above I got talking about the extra hydraulic valve hookup and forgot to mention something else about the hydraulic pump issue. A quick test you can do to check for pump wear is to start the tractor and curl the front bucket down so it lifts the front end of tractor. (with nothing on the 3 point hitch). The front end should lift up without needing to rev up the engine. If it won't, a worn pump is often the reason. A new pump is near $800 so it's major. Fuel on top of the engine is probably minor - might be from a leaking injector pipe - not common, but not unheard of. Take care, Dick B

 

[phlegm]

The dealership sent me the listing of repairs that they performed after receiving the tractor. Which is good and bad (for both of us really)

Their notes state that all front axle bearings were replaced, the notes also state that they had to be 'peened and locktite' used to hold them in place.

The leak at the top of the motor was caused by the mechanic fixing the fuel line. The salesman didn't know that but it was in the work order notes.

The waterpump was replaced
There was a problem with the starter wire at the starter that they fixed

all totaled their internal bill states they put $2400 in repairs (and I didn't see any labor included)

Their notes also state that after replacing the hydraulic filter they experienced the same issue that I did with a total loss of pressure. Their notes also state that they had to drain about 1 gallon of fluid to get down to the 'full' mark. Which also indicates that the salesman 'extended the truth' when he told me that all fluids were changed, obviously if they had changed the hydraulic fluid they wouldn't have overfilled it.

Their notes also state that the power steering is loose but they are not going to fix that. They are also not willing to replace the broken tach needle, nor are they willing to even run basic tests on the hydraulic system.

when I had it home and it was cold there were no issues with the hydraulic system at cold temperatures (in the morning) it would lift the front tires and it would lift the 3pt implements at idle. When warm 1500RPM was required to lift the bucket and/or the 3pt.

My main problem right now is that they are not interested in my trade (at all) and that they are not willing to move off of their stated 'for sale' price. And at this point I am not willing to give him full price, especially with the knowledge that I may be looking at another $1000-$2000 (not sure how much labor costs to replace the pump).

They do offer a 30day 'limited warranty' that they will split the costs of parts/labor.

In the last week I test drove a Agco ST40. 2002 model with only 366hrs asking $15500, just as nice as the Kubota.. 12yrs newer $4k/more but it wouldn't lift a round bale.. bummer.

I've been checking the 'tractorhouse.com' site and there are quite a few 4wd/MFWD tractors out there with loaders for under $13k..

For now I'm going to focus on selling my IH and my CoOp and putting that $$ in the bank. Then I will continue shopping for 40-50hp tractors (4wd with FEL) until I find one that has the features and price that I'm willing to pay. After my tractors sell, I will check to see if the dealership still has this 4150 and if they do I'll make another offer (still not full asking price).

-ron

 

[brain55]

You did the right thing by walking away from that machine.

Their notes state that all front axle bearings were replaced, the notes also state that they had to be 'peened and locktite' used to hold them in place.

This part is nothing to worry about. There is a nut that holds the bevel gear to the shaft that needs to be peened over into a slot on the shaft, if this is not done properly it will spit that gear out onto the ground along with all of the bevel case oil and will usually damage both gears on its way out. I know from experience and having to replace those gears for a customer at my expense. They were just covering their behinds my putting that note in there.

Their unwillingness to test the hydraulic pump would be my biggest concern. They either don't want to give you anymore information, or they don't have the equipment or knowledge to do the test. The steering could be as simple as the idler arm bushings or the bolt that locks the arm to the pivot pin, or as bad as a steering box. I don't think I have ever done a steering box in that series of machines. The tach doesn't surprise me, I think I stated in another post that I doubted they would fix that.

Good luck with your tractor search, I hope you find something better suited for you.

Brian

 

[phlegm]

I'm not done with this one yet, I didn't even notice the loose steering so my guess is something simple like tierods.

The complete frontend rebuild (in my mind) removes one of the major repairs on this tractor for another 10yrs.. the motor only makes a little smoke when it first starts (less than 5 minutes) and when working the only smoke it makes is black when it is being worked hard. So that only leaves the transmission and while operating it I did not notice anything other than what I'd consider 'normal' wear/loose/worn shifter bushings.

In a month or so I'll go back and see if they are sticking on their price, and offer cash, no trade, at a rate that I'm willing to pay.

Realistically I am willing to go to their asking price but their attitude right now is probably the biggest hang up for me. Their unwillingness to discuss potential issues or perform basic testing.

Next time I go back I'm going to talk to a different salesman. The one I was dealing with had to go to his 'supervisor' to get a yes/no decision on the selling price. And knowing that I wonder why I'm dealing with an 'underling' at all if he can't actually make any decisions and he doesn't know about the equipment that he is selling.

-ron

 

[rbargeron]

Of the 6 tie rod ends, 3 are integral with the rods. Ends are $50 each and rods are $100. The power steering box is a much bigger deal ($1800 new). Check for leaks or looseness where the main steering arm comes out of it (left side under the dash). This tractor will likely need some real money put into it to make it more like a 1000-hour machine. Lower-hour Kubotas with 4wd, loader, and 50+ hp are roughly in the $16k-$20k price range today. The asking price for this older L4150 is not way off considering it's size and power. Unless you will do all the repairs yourself, maybe a smaller or lower-hour machine, or one with fewer big-ticket unknowns would be a better way to go. Remember the search is half the fun... Take care and good luck, Dick B

 

[phlegm]

I am starting to get a little concerned that used (if not local) are just not an option. I won't know all the fiddly stuff that I learned about this tractor via pictures or (not totally truthful) seller. And for things like the power steering that I didn't notice or the hydraulics that randomly acted up, there's too much of a chance that I'd miss something.

FWIW, this weekend I'm taking home a year old Bobcat CT225, the salesman claims it should be able to move a round bale with the loader.. 1220lb lift capacity 7TL from here(Front-End Loader Specifications - Bobcat Company)

With a breakout capacity of 1900 (approx) it should work just fine. No quick attaching bucket though.. hopefully that won't be too much of a problem. The are asking $13,500 with less than 250 hrs.

I realize that it most likely won't work well (or at all) with my 8ft snowblower, but I can alway sell that too and buy something else.

I honestly feel a little 'dirty' though for some reason. Taking home all these tractors, getting good use out of them (things I've been trying to get done all summer) and then returning them sort of makes me feel like I'm cheating the dealerships out of 'rental money' but they seem to be OK with it..

I've also been searching online, I saw a Massey-Ferguson 2615 (new) sell for $19,995. The other day. The eternal debate.. buy used and pray or buy new and pay...

thanks,
-ron