T6 FEL Question

[Matt W]

Will your front bucket preform two movements at the same time? I was just moving the gravel back up from the heavy rain we had last night, with new to me T6. Found out when in float the bucket will move to dump but not roll back. More experimenting shows it doesn't seem to want to curl going up or dump when moving down. My old T5 was great at multi tasking. While back dragging the bucket was quickly responsive and allowed rolling back as a pile was being finished out smooth in float. As I approached my dump trailer I could be dumping and lowering at the same time and the reverse as backing away, quick and nimble. The valve on the T6 is buried behind a bunch of hydraulic lines and a handful of electrical wires as well as covered in new grease. So I can't see what is happening enough to figure it out. The main question is this beast designed this way or might it have a linkage issue? I would hate to start moving lines and wires to find out it's meant to be clumsy. A friend had a Yanmar with FEL that by design would only make one movement at a time and I hated it.
Thanks!

 

[Matt W]

Used an inspection camera and found no foreign objects blocking movement. So I guess I'll tear into it later. Any Voice of experience would be appreciated.

 

[agjones]

It's normal in float to lose a function since you're essentially locking one oil path open.

When not in float it depends on the valve.

I'll check my T6 this week, but I think both fel functions at the same time.

It's not likely a linkage problem if you can otherwise operate both spools.

 

[Matt W]

I got into it this afternoon. Best access is to remove the plate that has the warning lights and switch. At least then it can be seen. It's a two valve set up, one sits directly in front of the handle lift/lower and the roll/curl is beside the handle operated by the side to side movement of the knob, and by my evaluation should work as I had hoped. Best I could tell the linkage was binding to the roll/curl spool. The binding seemed worse the further forward the handle is pushed. I failed to get the handle to valve linkage completely out but did free it enough to work I think, even in float. Can't test until I repair the old brittle wires and ignition switch that were broken during the process. Here is a photo of the problem area. I could not remove the bent rod from the spool. Too tight to heat or hammer in the space. Afraid of damaging the spool anyway. It might free up more as it's used. What is the correct name of the ball joint link? The nut is off in this photo.

And just for reference here is the lift and drop valve. It works fine the white is just spray grease.

 

[agjones]

Ball stud? Not sure.

There's plenty to bind on in there!

 

[Matt W]

Back working but it is taking too much pressure to make it curl back while in float. Seems to be working as it should from neutral position. Covered in penetrating oil, then more spray grease. Will give it a chance to free up on its own before going back in for more invasive surgery. Hope I don't break the handle before then.

 

[Matt W]

Ok guys, I made a tool to press the linkage out of the spool valve. No joy! Any of the great minds here have an idea? I have about all the pressure I can squeeze on the vice grips. Bending the fork on the left side of the photo.

 

[Dart1917]

That's a neat idea with the vise grips. If you can get at the right side with a punch while it's under pressure and give it a few good taps it might break loose. You might have to remove the nut from the end of the handle and try moving the handle back to change the angle on the ball joint. here's a pic of the whole assembly out
of the tractor-

 

[Matt W]

Thanks Dart. I did do a little tapping while my press was in place. Afraid to really drive on it, might break the top off the spool. Right now it's back together because the machine is usable and I have a paying job in a day or two. Right now I'm thinking about cutting the bent link in order to drill it out? It's the same as welded in, I had a lot of pressure on it and the tapping never moved it one thousandth. Even heated the top with a small torch as much as I dared. And tapped on the rod above the clamp to induce turning in the hole, no movement. The bent threaded rod would be easily reproduced. As is I can't even get the whole assembly out as you have pictured because the handle isn't removable with the linkage in place. Do you know how the spool comes out?

Looks like you had a broken handle? The one on my old T5 broke but I think I welded it without removal, maybe, it's been a long time.

 

[Dart1917]

There is an internal snap ring in the bottom of the spool that holds a flat plug in place. When you remove that the spool can slide down and if I remember right there is a c clip that holds the centering spring and retainer to the bottom end of the spool. Remove that and the spool should come out the top. bad news is I don't think it can be done in the tractor cause the bottom end is sticking through that shelf behind the dash. I'd keep trying oil, heat, pressure and tapping for a bit before cutting it off.
Yeah, the handle was broke at the bend, I made a new one out of heavier rod turned down on the ends where it fit through the pivot and for the knob to thread on.
A pic of the bottom of the valve-

 

[Matt W]

Thanks Dart for your help. I figured the whole valve body would need to be out to remove the spool. The piece I'm thinking about cutting is just the 5/16 rod, in order to rotate the spool enough for drill access. Thinking of leaving enough stub to center a drill guide made on my lathe. I'm betting a 1/4"drill will twist it free, may not need to even go the full 5/16. It won't be tomorrow as I have some digging to do for a neighbor.

Did you do a complete Restoration on your machine?

 

[agjones]

Just so it is out there....replacing the valve altogether is not that bad an operation. I can share some sources when needed.

 

[Matt W]

Thanks agjones,
Did you ever see if your machine will roll and curl in float and more importantly will it roll back at the same time as lifting the arms? I took off all the lines this afternoon and did a study: It is looking and feeling like the frozen shaft may not be the problem. With good access I could better see and feel what is happening. Is it possible the valve internally locks out the curl back when raising the arms as some kind of safety? It will go into dump but feels like the roll function is internally locked mechanically out when raise is called for? Maybe to keep a person from dumping stuff backwards from a high bucket.

 

[Dart1917]

You have a SPK valve and according to this you should be able to use both circuits at the same time. I think your frozen linkage is causing your problem. It sounds like you have to skills and tools to do whatever you need to to get this thing apart and repaired without screwing something up. Being a machinist myself, making special tools or parts isn't a problem. You probably know about McMaster-Carr already- they are a great source for commercial parts used on the machine. I found motor mounts, chromed rod for new pins, O rings for the valves and cylinders, etc.

 

[Matt W]

Thanks Dart,
That is great information. I will eventually get it even if I have to remove and overhaul the whole valve. The digging season will be over for my little bamboo farm in a few weeks. Then I can have the machine down for a while if needed. Yeah I had already checked McMaster-Carr to be sure they had the ball joint stud, they do have everything. And yeah while I'm no machinist I am lucky to have a pretty good shop. If you want shop tour, not sure about link protocol here but if you google "matt walker damascus" it'll lead you there. I'm supposed to be retired but this obsession with making this valve work correctly is cutting into my fishing time!

I packed ice water rags around the spool last night and took the the joint to cherry red and still no movement in that linkage. Never seen anything this stubborn.

I really appreciate you and agjones trying to help, it seems the T6 owners club is small. Other than this one issue I love the T6.

 

[Matt W]

Out with the old, in with the new. FEL working perfect now!
Thanks!

 

[Dart1917]

Glad to see you got it and it fixed the problem. Finally got to poke around your website a bit- Nice setup you got there. Always thought I'd like to try forging but I know I don't have the time to take my time and learn it the right way. That's a whole different skill set, knowing when the temps right, what materials work well together, etc. I watch Forged in Fire sometimes and being under the clock like that doesn't seem like a good way for an artist to work.
I did end up with a complete "restoration" of my T6. Still have to finish the ROPS, but everything else is done. Started out just wanting to go through it, clean it up, replace hoses, rebuild cylinders, etc. but the project grew until I had a bare chassis sitting there. I found other sources for parts, it helps that most of the mechanicals are commercial components. Things like that $100 plus timer relay for the glow plugs can be had from Rock auto for about $20 (Standard Motor Parts RY53) and it's the same made in Germany part just repackaged.

 

[agjones]

Glad to see you got it and it fixed the problem. Finally got to poke around your website a bit- Nice setup you got there. Always thought I'd like to try forging but I know I don't have the time to take my time and learn it the right way. That's a whole different skill set, knowing when the temps right, what materials work well together, etc. I watch Forged in Fire sometimes and being under the clock like that doesn't seem like a good way for an artist to work.
I did end up with a complete "restoration" of my T6. Still have to finish the ROPS, but everything else is done. Started out just wanting to go through it, clean it up, replace hoses, rebuild cylinders, etc. but the project grew until I had a bare chassis sitting there. I found other sources for parts, it helps that most of the mechanicals are commercial components. Things like that $100 plus timer relay for the glow plugs can be had from Rock auto for about $20 (Standard Motor Parts RY53) and it's the same made in Germany part just repackaged.View attachment 694489View attachment 694490

That looks great!

When can I drop mine off?

 

[Matt W]

Yeah Dart, I bet your machine wasn't that nice when it left West Virginia. I could never stand having my machine down for an extended period of time, but it looks like it has a big brother to use when it was in the recovery process.

I'll store away that bit of valuable info on the timer, thanks. Any others would be appreciated! My machine is absolutely useable now but the next little project will be fixing a goofed up tie rod. Some genius broke one of the ends off and left the threaded part in the tie rod, their fix was to weld another tie rod end to the outside of the rod . No sign of attempting to remove the broken piece. It's out of line enough to have pretty much ruined one tire already, so no rush in dealing with it. Looks like he could make a decent weld at least. So if you have one of those magic numbers for T6 tie rod ends that would be great. I've seen a couple of numbers floating around for T5s but not sure if the same was used on our machines?

Yeah, it is nice to have a good shop, thanks for visiting my site. I guess you can understand now that I'm pretty much a guy that likes to get a bigger hammer. I just didn't think the valve would stand it. Maybe finally old enough to realize all problems aren't solved with a bigger hammer .

 

[Dart1917]

I bought ES323R tie rod ends for mine. I bought off brand (Ultra Power) from Rock auto for a whopping $4.47 each. The taper stuck through the arm just enough that the nut didn't really pull the end tight in the hole so I used a washer big enough to go over the taper and then a smaller one on the threaded part.