Starting problems

[LowellBen]

I've got a major puzzler here.

Tractor is a 2015 1538 HST with 135 hours. I bought it as a repo back in December. I've put about 15 hours on it. All of the fluids and filters have been changed with the exception of the front axle fluid - on my list of to do's.

For the last few engine starts, there was a chattering noise coming from the left side of the engine which would stop after a few seconds. Wasn't obvious where the noise was coming from. Last time i used the tractor, the starter was intermittent, turn key to start, starter would whine, but not engage the flywheel. Next time starter would engage and motor would start. Next attempt it wouldn't. Also noticed that the clutch freeplay had gone way out of adjustment.

Well, started to pull the starter out and all sorts of crap started to fall out of the opening. Dirt, seeds and fur. Somehow mice got up into the clutch housing area. I cleaned all the crap out of the starter nose and bendix area and there was a lot of it. Kept thumping the starter on the workbench and stuff kept falling out. Finally stuff stopped falling out. Shaft that the starter gear slides/spins on has a blue discoloration, so it got hot at one time. Gear spins freely. Took it into O'Reilly's and it tested ok. I inspected the teeth on the flywheel and all looks ok. I loosened up the cover plate underneath and then used compressed air through the starter mount opening to blow whatever stuff I could out of the clutch area. And a lot of stuff came out, sand, dirt, seeds and fur. Put the starter back in and same problem, starter spins but does not engage the flywheel. I took the starter back out, reconnected the wiring and spun the starter where I could see the operation of the the starter gear. All appears to work normally, the bendix drives the gear forward and it spins. Gear teeth on the starter looks fine, teeth on the flywheel look fine.

So after the fact, I now understand where the chattering noise was coming from after engine start. The starter gear was staying engaged with the flywheel after engine start cause all the crap in the starter was not allowing the bendix to release.

So I have some questions...

What is wrong?

How are mice getting up in there?

Where is best place to buy a starter? But current starter appears to work like it should.

Could there be damage to the flywheel gear teeth that I'm not seeing?

Thanks for all thoughts and ideas on this. Starter should/does work - but it doesn't.

Lowell

 

[LowellBen]

Got out a strong light and a magnifying lens. Starter gear is toast. What I initially thought was just the way the gear was machined, is actually the front edge of the teeth are ground down. I would suspect that there should be an angle machined into the leading edge of the teeth to allow engagement with the flywheel teeth, these teeth don't have that.

Using the strong light and mag lens looking into the starter mount hole, there does appear to be some wear to the leading edge of the flywheel teeth. I think/hope the flywheel is still ok.

Anybody know if I can just get the bendix/gear for this starter?

 

[Reb954]

I suspect you can get just the Bendix assembly. Probably start with the local parts store to see if they can match something up. If they can't then try the dealer.

 

[LowellBen]

Thanks for the idea, already been there. Checked with O'Reilly, Autozone, Napa and Carquest - no cross reference. Checked with a starter/alternator overhaul shop, he couldn't cross to anything in his suppliers databases. I would bet money that there is a US made part that has the same specs, but I have no idea on how to get access to the part numbers. Yes, I'll contact the nearest dealer tomorrow morning, but I suspect he will only sell me the entire starter and I think the list price from Mahindra is in the area of $500. Amusingly, I found a parts supplier in India who has the part for 6300 rupee or about $83. Wonder how much to air ship and custom fees to get the starter from India? Also saw a Chinese manufacturer who manufactures a Bosch knockoff. I even went to Bosch Global and tried to look up PN F002G20292, nothing came up. I guess Mahindra USA holds their part distribution/manufacturing very close to the chest.

 

[JerryK]

You can buy the entire starter on Ebay. So the starter is a common Bosch part. You just need to get with someone [ somehow ] that knows Bosch parts..... Same one Mahindra uses for their pickups.... [ me thinks ] Bosch Starter Motor for Mahindra Goa Scorpio 2.5 & 2.6 Diesel TODOTERRENO Pickup | eBay

 

[BobG_in_VA]

Suggest you get a new starter...but not from Mahindra. I had to replace my starter on my 6000. I think I paid right at $190 delivered (about 5 years ago)...got it off Ebay. Best $$ I've spent...no real other problems since 2003.

 

[LowellBen]

JerryK, thanks for the link. Link shows the exact part number and starter looks the same. When I was searching the part number, I did have a couple hits on Amazon and on Ebay. The Amazon hit was for Reubicon International out of Austin, TX. They want $310. The Ebay hits were for starters, but not the PN that I had entered in the search. During my web searches I saw references to the 2.5L Scorpio, but could not xref that piece of info to anything. I'm gonna see if I can find a phone number for Bosch USA and talk to someone there.

And BobG, thanks for that info.

Internet searches have been my friend for many obscure parts I've needed in the past. This starter is one of the few times I've searched for something and not gotten hits that have led me to a place where I could obtain the item at a reasonable price. I'm embarrassed that JerryK got a hit on the PN for the part in the UK, but I couldn't get any useful hit.

Thanks for the info guys.

But still, how are the mice getting up in there in the first place????

 

[LowellBen]

Decided not to wait for Bosch to get back to me. Ordered starter from the place in the UK. Already have a shipping tracking number, but the number hasn't gone live yet, so don't know if I'll get it by May 5 as claimed. Dealer wanted 2.5x what the place in the UK is getting even when shipping is factored in.

 

[JerryK]

Life is GOOD .... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[thepumpguysc]

Just for future reff., MANY diesel fuel injection shops also sell alt. & starters..
ESPECIALLY if u have a BOSCH P#.. 95% of them are Bosch authorized & can get u any Bosch P# u need..
& u might have gotten more hits if u put the # in correctly..?? F-002-G20-292 & some are written.. F002-G20-292..
seldom are run all together..
Anyway, glad u found 1..

 

[LowellBen]

Amazingly, I did receive a reply from Bosch USA. That part number is not available for sale in the US. They asked me if I wanted to start up a distributorship. Na!

Starter has been bouncing around at different facilities in the UK for the last couple of days. Not gonna get here by the 5th.

Still gotta figure out how the mice got into the clutch area.

 

[LowellBen]

Finding how the mice were getting in, was easier than I had expected. Spent quite a bit of time with a light and mirror looking around underneath. All I had to do was to lift up the rubber pad on the floor pad. Very poor design for what I will call the HST housing. There are three big holes in that casting, plus another hole where the HST control shaft goes through. There should have been cover plates on three of the holes and some sort of dust seal for the control shaft. Have spent several more hours using a plastic tube and compressed air blowing crap out of that area. Three pissed off mice came crawling out. Going to use three small pieces of sheet metal and RTV to close up the three easy holes. Going to have to fab some sort of screen mesh for the HST control shaft hole.

I'm hoping that once the starter gets here, that the flywheel ring gear teeth are not so damaged that the tractor won't start. Hopefully the clutch will clear itself and start working properly. I also hope that whatever they use for a clutch throw out bearing is completely sealed and won't end up failing some time in the future. Way too much hoping that nothing else is damaged in there.

Really ticked off over something that shouldn't have happened but did due to poor design. Think I'll shift projects for now and go out to the airport and finish putting my airplane back together after it's inspection - and maybe go flying for a bit.

 

[JerryK]

Not to play my harp too much...... but it pays to park any vehicle you cherish in a non-rodent building. [ sorry a boot the harp playing.. ] STAY SAFE

 

[LowellBen]

Well, this is precious. Starter has been in Stansted, GB for the last 4 days. Appears someone is scanning the package everyday, but it is not moving. Talked to a Fedex International service rep just now and after checking into it, says that the package is being held at the airport for some reason. He has opened a case number to find out what is going on.

As far as parking vehicles.... The tractor was bought as a working machine, it has a job to do, will get serviced on schedule, but is not intended to be a toy. Same as my 14 year old diesel truck. It is too big to fit in the garages. It hauls trailers full of stuff along with gravel, dirt, steel, drywall, etc in the bed. 220000 miles and the LBZ motor with Allison trans is still running strong and I hope it will continue to do that for another couple hundred thousand miles with regular service. Now as far as what gets garaged: wife's car, my supercharged Dodge Challenger, two motorcycles and a Polariz Razr.

We are on 70 acres in the mountains of Colorado and the house sits on the only reasonably flat spot on the entire 70 acres. Wish I had room to put up another building - just not gonna happen with this terrain.

 

[LowellBen]

Starter showed up yesterday. Total amount of seeds, dirt, sand and fur blown out from clutch area would easily fill a coffee can. I'm sure there is more in there. Engine started with no odd noises, so teeth on flywheel must be ok. By running engine at 2000 rpm and slapping the clutch pedal, the free play is just about back to where it is supposed to be. Hopefully running the tractor some more will throw out or grind down any debris on the clutch disc or in the pressure plate assembly. All of the holes on the HST bell housing are covered by plates or fine mesh screen. Had caught three mice in a sticky trap I had put on the floor pan.

 

[Reb954]

I'm glad it worked out. Thanks for the update, it may help someone else in the future. And it will suggest to others with that model to plug the holes.

 

[LowellBen]

In case anyone cares, here is a followup to my saga.

After replacing the starter, I worked the tractor for about another 5 hours and then started to have drive problems. It would barely move in forward or reverse. It was beyond my capability to repair, knowing it had to be split. Took it to a dealership 80 miles away. When I dropped it off, tech initially thought it was an issue with the HST. He just barely got it off of the trailer and back to the shop's parking area. A couple days later he called to say that something was wrong with the clutch as he had no PTO rotation either. On these tractors the HST is not part of that power tranmission path to the PTO. So he split the tractor and sent me several pictures including the one I've attached here. He said that everything would probably work if he just cleaned up the parts, but recommended replacement. I agreed and told him to replace the pilot bearing, throwout bearing, clutch disc and pressure plate. I didn't want to have him split the tractor again in case the cleaning job didn't clear the problem. It took nearly a full week to get the parts from Mahindra. Total bill was $2040.00. I've since put another 20 hrs on the tractor and all is well. He took off the screens and plates I had put over the holes, so I had to do that again. Wish I could turbocharge the tractor, kind of a dog at 8200'.

Lowell