Starter click/dead? Try this TBN gem!

[KYKub]

I was having a problem with Kubota starter intermittently failing--turn key, it clicked but didn't spin the starter--worse in the cold it seemed. Tried all the usual checks: battery, wiring, ignition switch, etc. and couldn't find a problem. Could whack it a few times with a rubber mallet and get it to start so I figured I had a bad starter or solenoid; not a huge deal, but not cheap either.

I ran across this thread in the Kubota section of TBN in which KUBMECH offers a simple, elegant solution to this problem - the installation of a low voltage relay: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...40-b2400-starting-problem-finally-solved.html

The starter "click" problem is often (maybe even most often) caused by deteriorating contacts in the ignition system. Simply, the solenoid, due to age and corroded contacts, isn't getting enough voltage to properly engage the starter. Installing the relay allows lower voltage to "trigger" the relay and then apply full battery voltage to the solenoid. I'm far from a mechanic so others may enhance my explanation.

A simple automotive accessory installation relay kit for installing lights, horn, etc. contains everything you need pre-fabbed. I picked this kit up at Tractor Supply for $15.



I followed KUBMECH's directions and had the relay installed in 15 minutes. Presto - the starter engaged perfectly and the engine fired like new! Been fine every start now for a couple of weeks, even in colder weather.

Thrilled with the result, and realizing the kit was unnecessary, I then fabbed one myself and installed on another tractor that was starting to crank a bit slow. Didn't help (turned out to be the starter itself), but will likely prevent a future problem. I bought this 30 amp accessory relay at the local Advance Auto parts store for $6. Used wire and fused connection left over from the kit referenced above.



The short version of installation: the relay has 4 prongs numbered 30, 85, 86, and 87. Connect #30 to the battery side post of the solenoid with a fused wire. Connect #85 to ground (a short loop to the underside of the relay works well if you attach it to the frame). Connect the wire that goes from the key switch into the solenoid (the small wire connected to the solenoid with a spade connector) to #86. Connect #87 to the post on the solenoid from which you just removed the key switch wire.

Start it up, grin from ear to ear, and be thankful for smart people like KUBMUCH who are generous with their time and knowledge! (By the way, I notice on KUBMUCH's profile that he hasn't posted since 2006.)


Here is a pic of my completed install. I might tidy it up a bit by shortening the wires, but this gives you a pretty good look at how accessible everything is.



Good luck!

 

[Qapla]

I had to do this on our NH TC40D a couple of years ago. One thing to keep in mind - make sure you place the relay in the "up" position, wires coming out of the bottom and the top of the relay pointing toward the sky. I found that, even with the relay taped securely and what seemed to be "water proof", moisture was still able to get inside the relay because it was sitting "upside-down" and I had to replace my first one after only a few months. After making sure I mounted the new one as I just explained, we have not had any problems since - a couple of years later it is still working great.

 

[Piston]

Thanks for sharing this tip. I have to start my John Deere 410 backhoe with screw driver across the terminals of the starter, do you think this would fix that issue as well?

 

[newbury]

I was having a problem with Kubota starter intermittently failing--turn key, it clicked but didn't spin the starter--worse in the cold it seemed. Tried all the usual checks: battery, wiring, ignition switch, etc. and couldn't find a problem. Could whack it a few times with a rubber mallet and get it to start so I figured I had a bad starter or solenoid; not a huge deal, but not cheap either.

I ran across this thread in the Kubota section of TBN in which KUBMECH offers a simple, elegant solution to this problem - the installation of a low voltage relay: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...40-b2400-starting-problem-finally-solved.html

The starter "click" problem is often (maybe even most often) caused by deteriorating contacts in the ignition system. Simply, the solenoid, due to age and corroded contacts, isn't getting enough voltage to properly engage the starter. Installing the relay allows lower voltage to "trigger" the relay and then apply full battery voltage to the solenoid. I'm far from a mechanic so others may enhance my explanation.
<snip>

Good find.
However, I'm amazed that you have not been flamed for whacking it, even though that worked.
When I suggested that approach, although it had worked for me, many posters took time to tell me that it would never work, was dangerous, and was against the law of mechanical repair.

You did not mention how you tested the battery. I had my ancient battery load tested at NAPA and the first two times it passed, then he tested it a third time and it failed miserably. I replaced the battery, everything worked fine. I suspect your/Kubmech's solution would have worked also and may be a good thing to do anyways.

Here is the original kubmech post:

Frank, heres the bottom line..Power flows from your ignition switch through your PTO, neutral and clutch safety switches.
To the starter solenoid (black/white wire??) When all the switches and battery etc. are new there is very little resistance.
After you get some time and some age in these components resistance builds up and eventually will cause a voltage drop by the time it gets to the starter solenoid. This voltage drop will vary according to temperature, humidity and other factors.
That's why some times it'll work and other times it wont. The starter solenoid needs approx. 9 volts to fully engage. Anything less and it wont fully make contact to send power to run the starter motor. Yes it will click, but needs just a little more "oomph" to fully seat on the contacts and allow the starter motor portion to run. Now instead of replacing all the components in the system to reduce the voltage drop. What you need to do is install a starter relay. Most, if not all modern machines have this feature now because of this very problem. Some companies figured this out a bit sooner than others and came up with a pre-wired relay kit with instructions (John Deere and Scag I know for sure). Now some guys like to do things on there own and run down to NAPA and get a regular low voltage relay or a good old fashion starter solenoid, wire it up themselves and fix this problem, which works just fine. However the good old fashion starter solenoids still need close to 9 volts to engage and still causes some problems. The low voltage relay is the best way to go.. I think it will work with as low as 4 volts. In my experience the easiest way to go, is to install the JD kit part #
AM107421. It's, like I said, prewired and comes with instructions and it's around 15-20 bucks. Basically the way it works is... The red wire goes to the Battery terminal of the starter, the black wire goes to ground. You plug the black/white lead that would normally go to your starter to the male purple connector of the relay and the female connector purple lead to the starter. I have solved this "mysterious" problem many, many times on all brands and models of older machines with this kit. Everyone has given great suggestions for making sure your basic electrical system is sound and in proper working order. Most times when all else checks out and I have verified that voltage to the starter solenoid is a little low or questionable, installing this kit solves the problem at least 99% of the time. I'd be willing to bet it will work in your case as well. On rare occasions I have torn down the starter to find the contacts bad in the solenoid when this kit would not solve the problem. However for the price of the kit it's more than worth a shot in my opinion..................

 

[davesl708]

I installed a relay on my BX. Worked like a charm. No starting issues since. Well worth the $20 bucks.

 

[KYKub]

Qapla: thanks for the tip about the orientation of the relay. Didn't even think about that, but it makes perfect sense!

Piston: (love your avatar) It could be your solenoid or key switch, or possibly even a fuse causing you to have to jump the starter. However, at a maximum cost of $15 and 15 minutes of your time I'd give it a try! I hope you'll post your results if you try it.

newbury: Hopefully, folks have exhausted themselves flaming you. I don't know why anyone would consider this a dangerous or ill-advised procedure. I guess there's inherent danger in anything electrical, but I wouldn't see this as any more dangerous than changing out a battery. As far as danger of "harming" your machine, the power supply is fused and I can't think of another danger you are introducing. Not claiming to be an expert, just trying to reason through it. I had the battery load tested and it was fine.

daves1708: Glad it worked for you. It's not too often you get to almost instantly remove a really annoying problem for so little time and money.

I appreciate your replies.

 

[KYKub]

By the way, I mentioned that this procedure did not work on my other tractor. It wasn't "dead" or "clicking," just cranked slowly. I just got the rebuilt starter back and it was worn bushings that allowed the armature to "rub" which resulted in slow turnover. Installed rebuilt starter and it worked great.

Just FYI. The relay procedure didn't help that condition at all.

 

[Tx Jim]

Thanks for sharing this tip. I have to start my John Deere 410 backhoe with screw driver across the terminals of the starter, do you think this would fix that issue as well?

JD offered as parts or factory installed a relay kit to help starter solenoid engagement for tractors as far back as the 80's as yes it will help your 410. And yes extra relay won't help if starter has worn bushings or brushes

 

[Industrial Toys]

I had similar issues with my Kubota powered Onan. Cleaned up the starter and Solenoid. Worked good, then weeks later same problem. Bought new (cheap) aftermarket starter off E-Bay. Worked Good, then a few weeks later, same problem. Cleaned, soldered and tightened all connections. Worked good, then a week later, same problem. Then changed that Ford style starter relay. Worked good, then weeks later, same problem.

I have tried several batteries, but I am running out of options. I am wondering if my Electronic Maintenance charger may not be charging the battery full enough.

 

[davesl708]

I had similar issues with my Kubota powered Onan. Cleaned up the starter and Solenoid. Worked good, then weeks later same problem. Bought new (cheap) aftermarket starter off E-Bay. Worked Good, then a few weeks later, same problem. Cleaned, soldered and tightened all connections. Worked good, then a week later, same problem. Then changed that Ford style starter relay. Worked good, then weeks later, same problem.

I have tried several batteries, but I am running out of options. I am wondering if my Electronic Maintenance charger may not be charging the battery full enough.

Load test the battery. If good measure the voltage at the starter solenoid. If below 10v jump directly from the batter to the solenoid.
You may have resistance building up in the start circuit through all the safety switches. A relay installed to direct power directly to the solenoid should clear up the problem.