Stand-by generator

   / Stand-by generator #1  

Joe_W

Silver Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2001
Messages
111
Location
Greenville, Ohio
Tractor
2001 Kubota B2910
I've been looking for information on a 10-12 kw LP powered stand-by generator for back up power for our new house. I've looked at the various brands and prices, and there doesn't seem to be a clear cut winner. Then I had the brilliant idea of posting the question here and see what all the collective intelligence on this forum had to say. I'm always amazed at the information I can get from this forum.
I guess my question is, what is the best permanent mount LP generator for the money in the 10-12 kw range?
Thanks,
Joe W.
 
   / Stand-by generator #2  
Well, without any further information, I can tell you the WORST, that is Generac. They are cheaply constructed with aluminum windings.
Now, the questions, How large is your LP tank, how many hours do you anticipate needing to run, Why that size machine, Automatic transferr or manual, will the unit be housed inside a building, or outside on a pad, will it autoexercize? What is the coldest anticipated winter temperature? How frequently do you expect power failure, and what duration? Are you planning air cooled or water cooled?
Just about any gasoline generator can be set up to run either propane only, or dual fuel. There is a current glut of military surplus machines available, and they are being sold very inexpensively. Any standby generator should be an 1800 or 1200 rpm machine, not 3600, because you will get a much longer service life.
 
   / Stand-by generator #3  
Ditto for what Franz said, but also consider how often you need to use it.

For example, where we live, we get 2 to 4 outages a year. Usually, when the power goes out, we wait longer than others, because we're at the end of the line, and at a lower priority. Just the same, we don't "need" power to be on all the time; the only semi-critcal item is the fridge. As a result, short 1 or 2 hour outages are not a "big deal" to us.

Considering that, our generator does not get a lot of exercise. I manually exercise it every month or so. Ours runs at 3600 RPM, and is a Generac, and it has done well for us. It's 10KW continuous (12KW peak) output, and we can run the whole household on it. We use a manual transfer switch, as we wouldn't want it kicking on all by itself.

The GlueGuy
 
   / Stand-by generator
  • Thread Starter
#4  
We are moving out in the middle of nowhere in West Central Ohio, on a road that has a total of 4 houses (ours will be the 5th). I talked to one of the subcontractors and he said his parents live in the same area, and last winter their electric was out just over 2 weeks. I came to the conclusion of the wattage needed by looking at a wattage usage table and deciding what I NEEDED, and what I could live without, and came up with at least 10KW, if we used some items by themselves and cycled them when other things were off. I don't have an LP tank yet, but I will probably get one in the 300-500 gal range. It will also furnish fuel for heat for the barn. I am having the house wired for an automatic transfer switch, as we are gone some weekends and that would keep our food from spoiling and our pipes from freezing until we could get home. The unit will be mounted on a pad beside the barn, and I would like for it to autoexcersize. The coldest we have gotten here is 28 degrees below zero, but that is very rare. Typically we will have about 5-10 days at -5 or below. One year we were below zero for 2-1/2 weeks, but that is also rare. I don't expect power failure, but I know that it is a reality, and I have no way of predicting when or how long power will be out. Typically in this area where we are building you can count on 3-5 days a years for various reasons. As far as cooling it dosen't really matter to me, air would be less work, but that's not a concern. Also I should mention that we will have a wood burning stove as a backup heat source, and with 18 acres of woods, I shouldn't have any wood supply problems.
I had been looking at the Generac line, and found good prices, but then I wondered why, now I guess I know. Thanks for your reply, and I'm looking forward to your comments.
Thanks,
Joe W.
 
   / Stand-by generator #5  
First, and I could be all wet here, I think your load calculations are all wrong, unless you have a total electric house with a couple heat pumps and electric stove & water heater included. I say this because I run 2 houses and 3 barns off a 7.5kva Onan. Both houses are heated with oil fired boilers, and have wells, and I have power to spare.
Calculated load charts are wonderful things, for generator salesmen, not buyers. I've run an amprobe on my house, recording variety, and was surprized my peak load was only 5 amps under normal operation. Again, I'm not looking at your house, and have no idea what you are planning to run.
My second recommendation would be to put the generator inside the barn, not outside. It's a lot nicer to work on a machine inside a barn, and you usually have to work on them in the worst possible weather.
Either a 300 or 500 gal propane tank will power the unit, but given your climate, you need co consider vaporization rates if you want to use a generator that isn't running off liquid propane. A liquid fueled machine would normally be a water cooled engine with the coolant vaporizing the propane ahead of the carb. When you set up a standby generator, you always plan for worst possible conditions, cause that's usually when it will be needed. Since you mention a record low temp of -28, I'll point out that you culd unscrew a propane valve from a tank at that temperature and pour the liquid out on the ground, and watch it lay there and soak in. You can't burn propane in liquid form.
By your description, it appears you are building a new house, so you'll probably have excellent thermal insulation, and minimal heat loss. Loss of frozen foods and food in the fridge isn't enough of a consideration to justify an auto transferr system either. Most people are amazed when they learn how long a freezer of refridgerator stay cold with no power, as long as somebody isn't constantly opening and closing the door.
Also, since you mention Central Ohio, I'll give you a major bigtime warning, DO NOT deal with Level Propane. They are the biggest crooks in the world of Propane, so bad they've been thrown out of most propane associations.
As far as Propane goes, you'll also be much better off buying your own tank. Most vendors will compete to sell you a tank, and once you own it, you can buy propane much cheaper.
Another thing you need to consider is running time. Any stationary engine should be calculated at 20 hours equaling 1000 miles, so you need to change oil every 40 hours maximum on water cooled machines, or every 10 hours on air cooled machines cause the oil is a major cooling factor in air cooled machines. There are plenty of people who will tell you this isn't a necessary consideration. Most of them sell replacement generators and parts, or rebuild machines.
Another important consideration is the exercize cycle. The machine should exercize under load, not just running idle.
Finally, given your expected use, and duration, you definitely want a lo speed machine, not a 3600 Rpm model. Hi speed machines wear out much faster than lo speed machines.
I'd suggest you need to recalculate the loads, consider moving the machine into the barn, or garage of the house, and look at quality machines that run at either 1200 or 1800 rpm. A side benefit to having the machine in a barn would be free heat for the barn when the generator is running, unless you're talking about a really small barn, then you'd need to accomodate ventilation.
 
   / Stand-by generator #6  
I guess I'm going against the flow here, but I'll add my $.02 once again.

1. Regarding 1800 vs 3600 RPM. Unless you run the thing all the darn time, it's a non-issue. The amount of run time that our generator gets per year is less than 25 hours, including exercise time. Even a 3600 RPM engine is going to last 1000 hours before it needs an overhaul as long as it's well maintained. At that rate, the Vanguard engine on our Generac will last about 40 years. True, you'll get longer life out of a 1800 RPM engine, but it may not be cost effective.

2. Ditto the cold weather issues. Engines that run on propane run on vaporized propane, and you'll need to run the gas lines underground and insulate them to make it work. Also a good idea to run the line through a pre-heat arrangement if you can.



The GlueGuy
 
   / Stand-by generator #7  
All of the generators on our districts fire engines, squads, and rehab units are Honda. None of ours are 10kw, but if Honda is the choice for emergency services, they might be worth looking at for your application.

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif
 
   / Stand-by generator #8  
Generator and Xfer Switch (see Pic)

I guess I did overkill. I purchased a Cummins / Onan 35KW unit that runs on propane. It is a 6 cylinder 300 Cu In Ford industrial engine. I do have a 3500 sq ft house ALL Electric. I have seen my house pull just under 140 amps with heat strips on in both heat pump units and water heater going. This will never happen again as the house will never get that cold again after being without power for 7 days. This was when the generator was new and sitting on a pallet on my patio. It is now installed on slab with Auto Transfer switch. I will test it again this winter in cold weather just to see how many amps it takes to maintain.
I do have a deal for you JoeW. I have a NEW IN THE BOX Cummins / Onan Auto Transfer Switch, 225 amp, 3 pole, single phase, battery charger, exercise cycle timer, gauge package. In other words, loaded. I have 300 amp utility service which required a bigger switch. I bought the generator and 225 amp switch as a package. My dealer said his COST on the switch was $2600.00. I will take $1300.00 for it + shipping. This is a steal if you or anyone else needs one. Check out the picture!
 

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   / Stand-by generator #9  
Joe - you might also check with your uitlity company. Here in S.E. Michigan DTE Energy (our Elec. Co.) will do a generator package for your home wired and mounted on a pad & it just gets added to your elec. bill. I do not have it as I got my 5KW unit (with a 15 hp. Wisc. engine) before they offered this program. If my gen. set ever dies I will go this route.
 
   / Stand-by generator #10  
I forgot to add - I bought my gen. set from a local rent-all place. They keep them about 2 years & then spin them off. I got it for 1/2 price of new & as I only need it 1 or 2 times a year it has been perfect for my needs. I looked at the rental record for the unit & it had about 48 hours of use when I got it. The Wisconsin engine was what made the deal for me.
 

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