Splitting a TC24DA

[TCBoomer]

At this point, I wish it was overfilled!!

It was full when delivered and now it's low


I'm still undecided as to what option to take. So far, no one has convinced me not to repair it myself /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[RickB]

Calm down. I referenced your identification of hydraulic oil and did not question that. I also did not exclude any possibilities for the cause of the leak. I did predict what the most probable cause is. I am not going to tell you it can't be or isn't a porous casting, but I'll bet against that. Go ahead and dye it. Maybe it will show something more than if you don't; maybe not. You asked for guidance here, without exception you were advised to let dealership personnel handle what is clearly a warranty issue. Many dealers give the option of machine dropoff and pickup after hours. That may cut down the time you have to take off work. NH sells the input shaft seal as part of a $110 kit. If you don't want to buy that, be prepared to source a metric oil seal. And buy the manual.

 

[TCBoomer]

Trust me, I'm calm. I didn't try to imply otherwise. No reason to engage with you or anyone else here. If I did come across to you in that manner, it was not intended to be.

Thanks for your input

 

[pekabu]

I have the tc24d manuals somewhere hear. If you do this let me know and maybe I can help you out with them.

 

[jinman]

TCBoomer, I keep reading this thread and I think you are making a huge mistake.

What's the best that can happen? You open up your tractor, find the leak, repair the part, and reassemble. Sounds like a nice story doesn't it.

What's the worst that can happen? You open up your tractor, find a busted casing (expensive), and NH blames the whole kit and kaboodle on you. Says you did it while you were doing your "shade tree" repair.

What if you find a leaky seal, replace it, and the darn thing still leaks after you put it back together? How will you test it to ensure this ain't gonna happen? What if you get the seal fixed and introduce another leak from some obscure plumbing fitting?

Man... I could go on and on. This is far from a clear-cut issue. I know your frustration. I tore my operator's platform off and fixed my HST pedal (with my dealers help) when my tractor was less than a year old. But, I could look up and see the problem. I wasn't splitting my tractor.

You can go on and on about the inconvenience and cost of taking your tractor to your old dealer, but I think you should do it. That dealer has thousands of dollars of resources that he may use, but will only cost you a fraction of their cost. That's a bargain and the reason that some jobs need to go back to the dealer. After all, your dealer did not build your tractor, New Holland did. It leaks. Do you think you can do a better job than the factory? Maybe your answer is yes, but I think you should let them fix it.

If this sounds like a lecture that's because it is. I just want you to do what is best for you and I don't see how your taking on this job will result in anything but a lot of grief. Good luck. Maybe you'll do this and get away with it. I sure hope so. I bought a new tractor because I wanted something reliable. I know you did the same and this is not what we expect when we buy something new. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[bgott]

If you don't trust your dealer, do it yourself. My dealer split my TN 65 4 times to find a bent PTO shaft. It leaked the day I picked it up, new. I spent a couple of hours replacing missing bolts and tightening lose hardware each time after I got it back. They had drained the coolant and then ran the tractor on the dyno, I found the radiator empty when I picked it up. I checked the coolant because every time I had had them work on anything on the tractor that held fluid it came back low. I was an IH- Sperry New Holland tech in the '70s and disconnecting hydraulic lines and leaving them uncapped was a firing offence. Whenever I checked on the split tractor while it was in the shop,which was often because it took them forever to do anything, the lines were uncapped and had floor dry floating in the fluid. I have no confidence in the repairs I can't see and put a wrench on being any better, and, guess what?, it still leaks!!! I wiped my hand along the bottom of the case the last time I ran it and came up with oil. The reason I had to wipe the case to find it is because the tech pulled the cottar key, I figure it was so I couldn't see the drip if it had one. I did get them to install a cerro-metallic clutch out of a TN 75 last time, the bronze clutches actually like being oil soaked. New Holland's attitude was not satisfactory, they just told me to talk to the shop foreman if I had a problem. Being that I was one step away from kicking his tail end that wasn't what I wanted to hear. You said you are an experienced tech, there is nothing there that you can't handle. Be sure to spin your PTO shaft in a set of V- blocks. I know that sounds simple but the reason they gave for not finding something that the techs should have been able to feel by hand while re- installing the shaft was " New Holland doesn't pay us diagnostic time". /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif There were other issues but I am sitting here getting violently PO'ed just thinking about this so I'll save it for another time. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[kensfarm]

Wow.. bgott.. I would have skipped the "shop foreman".. and told the salesman or owner that you are returning the tractor for a full refund.

 

[bgott]

I thought about that but with 130 some odd hours I would have lost 3 grand or so. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt the last time but I'm going to review my options. I complained about the leak when new and was told to live with it for a while. I started running it in and out of their shops ( I've had it in shops at two of their dealerships) six months before the warranty expired. Heck, I figured six months would be enough time to split it twice in case they screwed it up the first time. How was I to know they are totally incompetent? At this point in time I'd just as soon do it myself, I know I can fix it. And know I will check the fluids when I'm done. And I can disassemble and reassemble the thing without knocking gobs of paint off of the hood. Or at least, If I do , grab a rattle can and fix the screw ups. And take less than a month and a half or more to do it. And, I'm done for a while, PO'ed again. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[TCBoomer]

Jim
Thanks for the lecture...it was well received. I agree with everything you said, which is why I stopped short of actually splitting the tractor, and post this issue here first. If the cause of the leak required a major component to be replaced, and I didn't have NH's authorization to do the job in the first place, I'd choke...because it'd be a big pill to swallow! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Before I actually started any disassembly, and after I had informed my dealer about the leak, I had offered two different proposals to them.
-1-Take the tractor back for a full refund, and I would buy the TC33DA instead....wishfull thinking I guess! I'd have to take a $3K hit, and that's just on the 24. Considering how bad they already burned me, NO WAY!! I'm not that naive.
-2-Refund the $614(what they wacked me for "supposedly" fixing my 21) and I'd fix the leak myself. In addition, they would supply me with the parts and process the warranty claim like they did it themselves. By agreeing to this proposal, I would forget all that has happened(even the damage to my truck)and continue to be a faithfull customer, like I was to the parts dept for the last 5 yrs. I honestly don't feel that this was unreasonable, all things considered, but they thought otherwise. I could do the repair part OK, but no refund!! They refused to tie the 2 issues together. To make matters worse...they had sold my 21 already, and as sad as it sounds...they had the odasity to resell it with the starting problem still present...they convinced that customer that extended crank time was normal for this tractor. They knew I knew about it(another story) and simply stated that it would be their problem if the customer complained. Talk about shady dealers!! I sure hope they stock a starter for it...with all that cranking it's seen, it's probably gonna need one REAL SOON! Plus an inj pump too!!

My only hopes at this time are to get NH's authorization to repair it myself...which I don't feel is that unreasonable, providing I speak to the proper authority and present my case or
.....stick a FOR SALE sign on it and unload it.

I haven't given up hope yet, but what a major let down this turned out to be. Nothing against TBN or it's members, but one reason I went local and paid a premium for the new 24, was all the fuss many of you make about supporting the local dealer and he would support you in return. You guys with reputable dealers are blessed and I am ENVIOUS of you!!!!!!!!!

Maybe I'll find one before I do something I may regret...

 

[TCBoomer]

I may just take you up on that

I'll be in touch if I do

Thanks for the offer

 

[TCBoomer]

Your experience is EXACTLY what I'm concerned about. Sorry my situation made you relive it and become upset.
I doubt my dealers shop is a flat rate shop...maybe tractor dealers don't even use this system??, but the bottom line is time=$$$.
If dealers would recognize the need to spend just a little more time and effort, they would gain so much more. It's no different in the automotive dealers world, but at least my employer recognizes this and his reputation proves it.

Again, I don't want to critize anyone, but if the tech who installed my MMM frame and FEL, or even who ever did the PDI had taken the time to notice the leak and fix it prior to being delivered, this situation would have been elimanated. The very first day it sat in my garage, it leaked. So there is no excuse for not seeing it. But I do now believe they knew about it and just blew it off.

 

[AndyMA]

Have you tried Kahn Tractor in N Franklin CT? Ray is the service manager. They are the dealer who I purchase all my tractors from and have an excellent service department. They split my TN75D to fix an oil leak and did fine. Between my father and me we have been using them since the 1950's. BTW, LaryRB has been there with me a few times and the one ting he always comments on is the ecellence of their service department.

Andy

 

[TCBoomer]

Hello Andy

I'm just about speechless as I sit here starting to type this. I don't know what startled me more...someone recommending Kahn or you confirming my suspicions as to who your dealer was, based on your location. I was going to ask you if they were your dealer, but was somewhat hesitant. You made it easier for me by posting what you did...thanks

I've noticed you always talked highly of your dealer, yet it truly amazes me that this dealer would pull the kind of stunt that they did. It's possible that my very first problem with them was just something that slipped through the cracks....it happens. But to continue the deceitfulness by passing on that very same problem to an unsuspecting customer(they sold my trade in), is just plain fraud. Granted, it's none of my business and not my problem regarding what they did to that customer. But what is important is what is in my best interest. How can I knowingly allow this very same dealer, to split my tractor, when all their credibility just flew out the window?? I didn't want to create a scene and tried to be low key about it. My normal reaction would have been to go ballistic. Believe me when I say "I was HOT under the collar". Instead I expressed my concerns and problems with Bill...my sales guy, who in turn passed it on to his managers...and that IMO is where the problem is. There failure to be accountable for the dealerships errors and take the appropriate action, has cost them a customer. Not just a new customer for sales and service, but a faithfull customer to the parts dept for the last 5 yrs. With that said, I am very bitter with the dealer as a whole, not any specific individual

Ray seemed to be a very honest and knowledgeable guy, and seemed to show a great concern to assist me in my time of need. I was in the middle of a major project that I had to complete before winter set in, and my tractor had what appeared to be an inj pump problem. This I confirmed myself. He gave me a 2120 to me to use while mine was being repaired. During the transition of speaking to him and then having it transported to their shop, I decided that I was interested in a new machine. He definately made an influence on me for that decision. He set me up with Bill in sales, who I can't say enough good about. He lived up to everything he promised, but some things that he had to rely on others for, seemed to follow a different agenda than what he as well as myself, had expected. Probably the one and only mistake that I made was not speaking up during the short time I used my tractor after I got it back, while waiting for the new one...and realizing that the problem was still there. This WASN'T an intermittent problem, it was there each and every time it was started...hot or cold.

I'll stop ranting here, before I end up writting a book. There is more to this story, and if you want I'll PM or email you, or I can just continue on here at TBN.

Bob

 

[hazmat]

<font color="blue">Let me guess...Chappell
Good people and good place! That's where my 21 came from and the 24 SHOULD have as well!</font>

Yup.

They have after hours drop off and are also open on Sat mornings. No need to miss work.

In my line of work (project management/engineering @ defense contractor) we often deal with calculating risk - what could go wrong - what is the impact if it does go wrong - what's the probablility that it will go wrong - what can we do to make sure it doesn't go wrong - how much will that cost. It's somewhat of an abstract concept - ie can you really figure out what the probablitity is - but usefull. Let me put it in context here:

Worst case
Tractor is total loss - You're out $15K - 10% chance (SWAG) = $1,500 weighted risk

There are many other "what if's" with lower values - ie you have to pay $2K to get tractor fixed if you can't put it back together yourself - but they would likely have a higher probablitlity (50%?) so the "weighted" risk would be similar.

Risk Reduction 1
$400 transport to send tractor to other dealer

Risk Reduction 2
$100 fuel to drive tractor to other dealer.

Both risk mitigation plans are lower cost than the (abstract) weighted risk & are a bargain compared to a $15K pile of scrap steel.

Send it to the other dealer - at least we'll all sleep better (even if you don't)

 

[tractorman71]

go ahead and split it!! put a new seal in it, and go. if (and thats a big IF) there is a bigger problem, deal with it then. if you have 30 years wrenchin', you probably have more experience than the guy at the dealer who would have split it anyway. I have been wrenchin' for about 16 years, and have seen some awful work done by dealerships. I did the 50 hr. service myself on my TN65, took me 6 hours.I found alot of small "issues" that could have turned bad if left alone:fuel lines rubbing,wires hanging,pto cable was gouged from rubbing on four wheel drive selector.(warrentied by dealer),loose nuts/bolts, loose plug in trans housing,ect. I doubt that the service tech at the dealer could have spent that much time on it without getting his hind end chewed by his boss. good quality PM's keep your equiptment going.

 

[JerryG]

I don't think that the problem will be whether he has the capability and experience to do the job or not. The problem may be if something is messed up, then the warranty will be voided.

 

[jinman]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( go ahead and split it!! put a new seal in it, and go. )</font>

I'd like to make a good-natured wager that TCBoomer's problem is not a seal at all. Sure, his tractor is leaking, but I'd bet he finds a loose connection is the culprit rather than a seal. It could be a gasket, but . . . /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Why not a seal? Well, this tractor is only 8 hours old. The seals installed at the factory have lots of fresh, live rubber and the shaft should be nice and smooth when new. Normally, seals leak when they get old and dry. Of course, if the seal is installed improperly, it can certainly leak. I just have my doubts.

So what do you think with all those years of experience? Does my argument and supposition have any basis in fact? If I'm wrong, I'll have to eat a whole plate full of crow, but I have a good appetite for exotic dishes. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[bgott]

Mine had a bent PTO shaft. From the factory. What is leaking now is anybodies guess. I think I'll do a dye job just to make sure it's not an engine leak and then just let it leak until it gets critical.

 

[RickB]

I'll be shocked if it isn't a seal. Doesn't have to be dry or cracked to leak, installing a seal improperly is the easiest way to make a new lip seal leak. if I am wrong, I'll fax the money to you. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[jinman]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Mine had a bent PTO shaft. From the factory. )</font>

Yeah, that is really unfortunate, Brad. Were there zero hours on your tractor when you got it? Could it have been bent by somebody while doing a demo before you got the tractor? Even in the factory, what could happen to make one shaft bent while others are not? Do you think somebody used your shaft for a prybar before installing it into your tractor? It always fascinates me to try and figure out why a single part is bad. Some things are easy to figure out, but others are tough. My question is whether it was caused by materials, process, or people? Maybe I should add location to my equation, too. I believe the TN assembly plant is not the same as the CUT assembly plant. So where the tractor was built may be a part of the problem. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif