soldering copper gutters

[bellweather]

I'm planning to install copper gutters and from what I've recently learned, the best way of soldering the joints/seams is with a soldering iron (not the electric kind used for joining wires to PC boards). I was under the impression this could be done with a propane torch, much like sweating copper plumbing joints. Anyone out there with experience who can offer some advice or pointers? Thanks.

 

[JoeR]

I remember as a kid seeing copper gutters on an old hospital building. I asked my father about them, and he explained how they were installed. They would overlap the gutters in the direction of the pitch 2 to 3 inches. Some people used tar, and other people used lead joints like solder to join them.

This is from memory and may not be accurate, but I hope it helps....


Joe

 

[Ozarker]

I remember that one of those home improvement programs. This Old House I think, did a program about copper gutter about a year ago. Maybe they have something on their website about it.

 

[Soundguy]

Not having ever soldered copper gutter specifically ( but have soldered copper, brass, bronze, tin, etc parts and sheets, etc ) I would think it would be a fairly easy job. Clean the joints, use a grease flux or pretreater ( some are acid base.. may make some attractive green oxidation.. but then that's what makes copper look good and antique ). Heat the joint with a propane torch, or equivalent, get the solder flowing, and it should sweat like a pipe if the fit is good, or at least fairly close.

Soundguy

 

[MarkV]

Bellweather,

This is just my guess, but I bet the use of the old style soldering iron is to keep from discoloring the copper at the joints. I think the torch will cause some discoloration but sure don’t see any reason a torch would not work.

MarkV

 

[wroughtn_harv]

I asked a friend who has a seamless gutter business your question. I've seen copper material on his rig so I knew he did it.

He says he does it the same way he does aluminum. He uses rivets and gutterman's friend which is some of the nastiest goodest stuff for sealing up cracks etc.

The difference is when he does copper he uses brass rivets.

He said he's only seen big commercial jobs done with soldered copper. And those guys carried what sounded like to me as rivet forges. He said they had buckets with hot coals that kept the irons hot.

You might look into a Henrob torch. They're an oxy acetyline torch that's unlike anything you've ever seen. I got mine because I was trying to get fancy with some aluminum.

What's trick about them is you set the regulators at four psi oxygen and four psi acetyline. Yup, four psi, blow your mind if you have one.

I've been hammertoning some plate. I've got four hammers and I've been wearing out the steel and my arm putting all these dents of different shapes into the steel. In the back of my mind I've wondered what it would like to have the dents filled with brass and then the whole thing sanded down smooth.

So last night I grabbed a short piece of scrap and beat some dents in it with a cross pein that I'd broken off an edge. The dent it makes looks like a half moon, kinda cute, making lemonade out of lemons you might say.

I then pulled out the Henrob and set it up. I'd read in the manual that you didn't need flux to braze. So being a believing sort I picked a tip and then some brass rod and heated up a dent after cleaning it. Stuff worked finer'n a frog hair split three ways. No flux just like the manual said. Supposedly the flame pattern is such that it keeps the welding area pure, sorta like a tig principle I guess.

They're expensive, about three and a half, but if it does copper anything like it does brazing you'll be happier than a pup with two tails within the first hour of using it.

BTW if you happen to see Motorcycle Mania on Discovery channel where that weirdo Jesse James is using a torch to put together a custom aluminm tank, that's a Henrob working.

 

[MossRoad]

Here's a link to a thread on the Henrob <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.tractorbynet.com/cgi-bin/compact/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=rural&Number=105046&fpart=1>click here for the Henrob thread</A>

 

[kofronj]

bellweather:

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.classicgutters.com/aboutcgs.html>Classic Gutter Systems</A> was a company who has been featured in This Old House. I was actually ahead of the curve (for once), and used their aluminum half-round gutters for my 1830 house in Bolton MA (I miss that one) about 8 years ago. When we moved to WI, the new "cape" that we have now had no gutters around the three-side porch. I decided to go back to Classic and order up their copper half-rounds. The gutters were cut (on a miter for the corners), and then a flashing was fitted around the outside of the two pieces and fastened with screws (this all came with the order). What was left was the flux and soldering, and I used a propane torch for that. It worked just fine, it's just like doing copper pipes (with the exception that I came unglued from the ladder).

I imagine that you could use a polyurethane caulk/sealant, which is what they recommend for the aluminum joints (that stuff is really sticky---takes a few days to fully cure). For copper tho, I'd probably stick with a torch. It's not hard, and you really don't need any additional equipment.

 

[bellweather]

Thanks for the response. It appears that soldering with a propane torch should be no problem. I'm familiar with sweating copper plumbing, and if it's similar to that, I should have no problem. Still, I'm wondering why sheet metal roofers use soldering irons and not torches...perhaps to avoid discoloring or distorting the thinner gauge materials? or maybe to avoid setting the house on fire? Anyway, I'm going to try a few test sections with my torch ans see what happens. Thanks again for the help.

 

[wroughtn_harv]

<font color=blue>Still, I'm wondering why sheet metal roofers use soldering irons and not torches...perhaps to avoid discoloring or distorting the thinner gauge materials?</font color=blue>

I suspect there's a couple of things going for the irons. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the control of the heat and solder. With an iron I would bet you can get much more pin point control of the heat and you don't have to worry about over heating.

You're probably right about the fire hazard also. You might consider picking up an old iron and then fab'ing out of say five sixteenths steel rod a holder so that you can use map gas or propane to heat the iron. Some practice on some scraps will surely make you a capable DIY in no time at all. The use of coals and multiple torches has to be all about efficiency and speed.

A note of safety might be appropriate. I'm notorious at tackling projects that should never have been done and doing them for entirely too little money. One of these projects was making some brass stands for a pair of antique carousel horses.

Nothing but a thing I told the customer and figured I could do it in a day, maybe two. It took a week. I decided to use sixteen gauge inch and a half brass round tubing. Bending them was nothing as I knew a muffler shop who had some of the unusual dies for their benders that most shops don't carry anymore.

But welding brass with oxy acetylene is an absolute bugger bear and I'm sure the same is true of copper. The biggest reason that brass and copper are such bugger bears to gas weld is the heat transfers instantly. You can't make a little red dot and dab in some filler like you can with aluminum or steel.

So I found myself doing about ninety percent of a butt weld in this tubing to find that last ten percent never ending. I'd be moving the puddle forward as the previous weld kept the same pace but falling in as it'd melt.

I guarantee you that there were more bad words on that concrete than there have ever been in total on any junior high playground.

So with your copper you might find the same problem. As you move the solder with the torch the area of heat enlarges and what you've just done runs away to play with the bugs in the grass. Or you might do like I did and accidently touch a place four feet away and find it just as hot as where you had just worked the torch.

The stands turned out great. But they're pretty high up on that list I have of "been there, done that, wore out the shirt, and threw away the hat. Never again." (I'd tig them)