Tires Should I put water in the tires?

[SPYDERLK]

Spyderlk: As I recall, sunken steel ships rust underwater ...could there be oxygen dissolved in the water?

Good point. Yes there is oxygen dissolved in the water. In deep water tho, there is no rust. I think the oxygen, which gets into the water at the surface, cant get to deep depths. Im not sure if its distance from the surface, extreme pressure, or both.
Larry

 

[john_bud]

Spyder,

I don't think that is correct. The Titanic is about to turn into a rust stain on the ocean floor and it is 10,000 feet down. That's deep, about as deep as it gets. There are only a very few places where there is no oxygen underwater. They are usually in very very still water.

jb

 

[SPYDERLK]

Spyder,

I don't think that is correct. The Titanic is about to turn into a rust stain on the ocean floor and it is 10,000 feet down. That's deep, about as deep as it gets. There are only a very few places where there is no oxygen underwater. They are usually in very very still water.

jb

Very little dissolved oxygen that deep. The corrosion of the Titanic is attributable to galvantic action and also to effluent of anaerobic microbes living on the iron surface. This latter relies on relatively stagnant conditions - a characteristic of great ocean depth, but not of a tractor tire.
Larry

 

[Soundguy]

Water self ionizes....

Soundguy

 

[npaden]

There is only a limited amount of oxygen in the water in a tire. You don't replace it with new water with fresh oxygen very often.

The inside of your tire should be air tight. Corrosion shouldn't be an issue.

 

[ovrszd]

There is only a limited amount of oxygen in the water in a tire. You don't replace it with new water with fresh oxygen very often.

The inside of your tire should be air tight. Corrosion shouldn't be an issue.

Maybe it shouldn't be, but it is.

I've taken Jeep tires off wheels that have been ran with low air pressure for traction. This allows mud, water, etc., to squeeze between the tire and wheel. If they are steel wheels, they will be rusty if they have been mounted a while.

 

[patrick_g]

I know some folks who have had a Rhino Liner or equivalent lining put inside their rear wheels to boost long term corrosion protection. Ethelene glycol based antifreeze is very toxic (old style auto anti-freeze) while propylene glycol is "food safe" (RV anti-freeze.) I don't recall the RV type having an additive package for corosion protection so you need to get some from your FLAPS (Friendly Local Auto Parts Store) to add to the anti-freeze/water mixture. Calcium chloride solution is heavier and is its own anti-freeze but it too will need anti-corosion aditives added. Calcium chloride is better known as the non-sodium salt substitute. Of course you don't need food grade purity. The guys with the lining in their wheels used calcium chloride and didn't need aditives. I can argue chemical science too but choose not to. Why argue about the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin when we have a microscope and can count them? I have personally seen several rear wheels corroded from water fill (with various additives.) Tractors have collapsed when a rear wheel corroded too much and then was stressed. This isn't conjecture or probablilties, it is history, known fact. If somehow you are an exceptional case and your wheels will be prevented from coroding by your faith or ignorance then by all means do whatever you want. Here is a helpful hint for you: Sulphuric acid is way heavier than water and would make an excellent candidate fill for tires. Pat

 

[SPYDERLK]

There is only a limited amount of oxygen in the water in a tire. You don't replace it with new water with fresh oxygen very often.

The inside of your tire should be air tight. Corrosion shouldn't be an issue.

Im making this up but I think its close to right:
1) Large volumes of O2 are not used in rusting,
2) Air has about 22% O2/78%N2
3) The water put into the tire has O2 dissolved unless u simmer it awhile first,
4) Both sources of O2 are available to oxidize the rim,
5) The tire goes down a little as O2 is captured by iron,
6) U add more air.

I believe a tire filled with water that has been simmered for awhile, combined with using N2 to first purge, then pressurize the tire, would result in virtually no O2 available for rust. I dont believe H2O dissociates naturally, or wed see explosive atmosphere develop over contained water.
Larry

 

[patrick_g]

About the "LIMITED" air supply in a tire: Don't tires need to be topped off every so often because they slowly leak air through the walls of the tire? I never had a set of tires wear out over a period of years and never require topping off several times. I usually inflate with air (containing O2.) I guess you could partially deflate your water filled tires with the stems at the 1200 position and reinflate with nitrogen or other inert gas to avoid oxidation (repeating several times because of exponential mixing of the N2 with the O2 tainted air. There is disolved O2 in the water so you'll need to repeat this at intervals until chemical analysis of the efluent shows appropriately low O2 concentrations. Pat

 

[john_bud]

Very little dissolved oxygen that deep. The corrosion of the Titanic is attributable to galvantic action and also to effluent of anaerobic microbes living on the iron surface. This latter relies on relatively stagnant conditions - a characteristic of great ocean depth, but not of a tractor tire.
Larry

Yes, but the difference between "very little" and "no" is a large difference. There are a lot of critters living on the bottom of the ocean - they need oxygen. Sure, it's not a much as at a coral reef in the Bahama's, but there is actually a LOT of oxygen down there. As far as stagnant conditions, I thought (don't know for sure) that there is a strong current around the Titanic.

(Ancient chemistry lesson bubbles to the surface) The galvanic action is enhanced by the conductivity of the salt water and helps drive the reaction faster, but the oxidation (rust) is due to the presence of oxygen. 4Fe +3 O2 -> (2Fe2O3).

But then again, what does that have to due with plowing a field?

Have a great day!
jb

Oh yeah, water does go to H+ and OH- by it self. BUT it does NOT go to H2 and O2. You were right on the button there!

 

[bx23barry]

I'm confused I thought there was oxygen in water (H2O) and air in tires. I don't think there can be water without oxygen or that you can get all the air out of a tire (at least without some fancy equipment). It just seems pretty reasonable to me that just water in a tubeless tire will alllow the rim to rust. In fact I have never taken a tire off any old steel rim that didn't have some rust in it.

 

[SPYDERLK]

I'm confused I thought there was oxygen in water (H2O) and air in tires. I don't think there can be water without oxygen or that you can get all the air out of a tire (at least without some fancy equipment). It just seems pretty reasonable to me that just water in a tubeless tire will alllow the rim to rust. In fact I have never taken a tire off any old steel rim that didn't have some rust in it.

Yes, youre right, there is oxygen in water. It is there in 2 ways; 1) as a constituent of the water molecule, and 2) as a dissolved gas. The part that is a constituent it tightly bound to hydrogen and is not available to participate in rust unless chemical or biological forces intervene. The dissolved O2, and that present in the air in the tire are available, and are responsible for the rust. You can get air out of a tire by repeatedly purging with a benign gas such as nitrogen. The dissolved air in the water can be removed pretty much by heating. You can see this in the pre boiling behavior of water on your stove - - bubbles begin forming and escaping before the water boils. This release of dissolved gases precedes and continues up to the transition to a true boil, camouflaging the actual transition. As the temperature of the water rises to near the true boil point the escaping "impurity" gas bubbles effectively catalyze the boil at below 212. They do this by providing nucleation sites, a place for the liquid water to make its transition to gas phase. As the impurity gas depletes, the "boiling" water continues to get hotter because fewer nucleation sites are provided. When the impurity is sufficiently rarified that it no longer escapes, the water finally behaves as a pure liquid and boils at its true boiling point. You can see this with a good thermometer in a pot of water on your stove. When youve released all the impurity gases that you can (it wont be all) you will be able to reduce heat and hold the water quietly at 212 or maybe 213 - - no boil. Not much dissolved gas left in it, but to truly remove all, the water must be evacuated. I think heating and then cooling it with no air over it is enuf. After filling tire with it the absence of O2 is maintained by always using nitrogen to adjust pressure.
Larry

 

[d413ai]

You can use tubes to reduce wheel rim corrosion. However, if you ever get a slow leak it will eventually rust out your rims. If you can afford it I would recommend cast iron wheel weights.

 

[bx23barry]

<Yes, youre right, there is oxygen in water. It is there in 2 ways; 1) as a constituent of the water molecule, and 2) as a dissolved gas. The part that is a constituent it tightly bound to hydrogen and is not available to participate in rust unless chemical or biological forces intervene. The dissolved O2, and that present in the air in the tire are available, and are responsible for the rust. You can get air out of a tire by repeatedly purging with a benign gas such as nitrogen. The dissolved air in the water can be removed pretty much by heating. You can see this in the pre boiling behavior of water on your stove - - bubbles begin forming and escaping before the water boils. This release of dissolved gases precedes and continues up to the transition to a true boil, camouflaging the actual transition. As the temperature of the water rises to near the true boil point the escaping "impurity" gas bubbles effectively catalyze the boil at below 212. They do this by providing nucleation sites, a place for the liquid water to make its transition to gas phase. As the impurity gas depletes, the "boiling" water continues to get hotter because fewer nucleation sites are provided. When the impurity is sufficiently rarified that it no longer escapes, the water finally behaves as a pure liquid and boils at its true boiling point. You can see this with a good thermometer in a pot of water on your stove. When youve released all the impurity gases that you can (it wont be all) you will be able to reduce heat and hold the water quietly at 212 or maybe 213 - - no boil. Not much dissolved gas left in it, but to truly remove all, the water must be evacuated. I think heating and then cooling it with no air over it is enuf. After filling tire with it the absence of O2 is maintained by always using nitrogen to adjust pressure.
Larry>

So to prevent rim rust in water filled tires all I have to boil and cool the tire in a vacuume a couple times and fill it to proper pressure with nitrogen. Sorry, I think I'll use some rust preventitve fluid.

 

[SPYDERLK]

So to prevent rim rust in water filled tires all I have to boil and cool the tire in a vacuume a couple times and fill it to proper pressure with nitrogen. Sorry, I think I'll use some rust preventitve fluid.


Good idea. I certainly wouldnt do it that way. Id deair by heating, store in sealed containers, and fill the tires after I had enuf.
Larry

 

[Soundguy]

I can think of a few situations where a CACL filled tire didn't corode, under good circumstances. 1, a tube, 2, the paint on the rim was 100% intact.

In any case.. just run a tube or get some af and water and not worry about it... no need to beat the horse anymore..

Soundguy

I know some folks who have had a Rhino Liner or equivalent lining put inside their rear wheels to boost long term corrosion protection. Ethelene glycol based antifreeze is very toxic (old style auto anti-freeze) while propylene glycol is "food safe" (RV anti-freeze.) I don't recall the RV type having an additive package for corosion protection so you need to get some from your FLAPS (Friendly Local Auto Parts Store) to add to the anti-freeze/water mixture. Calcium chloride solution is heavier and is its own anti-freeze but it too will need anti-corosion aditives added. Calcium chloride is better known as the non-sodium salt substitute. Of course you don't need food grade purity. The guys with the lining in their wheels used calcium chloride and didn't need aditives. I can argue chemical science too but choose not to. Why argue about the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin when we have a microscope and can count them? I have personally seen several rear wheels corroded from water fill (with various additives.) Tractors have collapsed when a rear wheel corroded too much and then was stressed. This isn't conjecture or probablilties, it is history, known fact. If somehow you are an exceptional case and your wheels will be prevented from coroding by your faith or ignorance then by all means do whatever you want. Here is a helpful hint for you: Sulphuric acid is way heavier than water and would make an excellent candidate fill for tires. Pat

 

[AndyMA]

These threads about filling tires never fail to amuse me. What is wrong with RimGuard? Heavier than water, totaly nontoxic, non corrosive, and designed to fill tractor tires.
I lost a rim on my 2120 to minor calcium leaks. I now use RimGuard and love it.

Andy

 

[Soundguy]

Price... around here i could buy a custom made , weighted rim for my tractor, plus put money away for retirement, plus go out to eat for what I would have to pay for rim guard. You'd think the weight came from ground up gold or something..

I assume that's also why most people shun it... to spendy in some places..

By the way.. rim guard will kill grass almost as good as cacl.. however it does wash out of the souil much faster, after initial exposure...

Soundguy