Shared Roads and other issues.

[pennwalk]

Is it possible that there are stakes or pins marking the property corners? I believe that it is a lot less expensive if the surveyor comes in and locates existing pins as opposed to a real survey.

Chris

 

[sanmigmike]

We know where some of the pins are located, some of them seem to gone bye-bye and the property next door that was on the market was just surveyed so we are going to find out who did that and see if it might be a tiny bit cheaper to use them.

At this point (I really hope I am wrong) I tend to think we are going to have to go to court to deal with him, maybe we can recover our costs??

The location of the pins and the survey on the property up for sale is really what convinced me that he is indeed on our property.

The funny thing is that until he complained about a political sign by the road that we had posted, it never occured to me that he was "stealing" my property. We then measured off the distance to our "flag" and then found out that he was taking our property as well as the other neighbors. The funnier thing is that he was a rabid supporter of the other guy but he is Austrian, not American and as long as they have been here he and his wife have never got American citizenship. If he had stayed out of American politics he would still be stealing from me without a problem.

 

[sanmigmike]

We know where some of the pins are located, some of them seem to gone bye-bye and the property next door that was on the market was just surveyed so we are going to find out who did that and see if it might be a tiny bit cheaper to use them.

At this point (I really hope I am wrong) I tend to think we are going to have to go to court to deal with him, maybe we can recover our costs??

The location of the pins and the survey on the property up for sale is really what convinced me that he is indeed on our property.

The funny thing is that until he complained about a political sign by the road that we had posted, it never occured to me that he was "stealing" my property. We then measured off the distance to our "flag" and then found out that he was taking our property as well as the other neighbors. The funnier thing is that he was a rabid supporter of the other guy but he is Austrian, not American and as long as they have been here he and his wife have never got American citizenship. If he had stayed out of American politics he would still be stealing from me without a problem.

 

[rox]

I am not 100% sure I am able to visualize the lots.

if ti is not too much trouble could you possible sketch something out in Paintshop and save it as a .jpg file and post it.

What I'm not clear about is that you have a different 20ft strip that can et you out to the road that neighbor A is growing grapes on? Is that correct?

Currently the existig road all 3 of you have an easement to cross the property of the others. In hindsight before I would have boughten that gravel for "my" portion of the road that you bought a few years back, you could have had this discussion at that time. You didn't ask and nobody contributed to that part you repaired.

Do you think things would work out better if you asked neighbors C & A to a face to face meting with your lawyer in his/her office. That might be better than a letter from the attorney. A meeting with the lawyer might be just what is needed to get everybody talking with each other. And the only way this is going to work out even half way decent is if you are all able to talk about it, together.

Perhaps your approach can be, the surveyor finished so with this latest information can we all get together and work out a plan that is good for everybody?

We are fortunate, we just had lunch today at our hosue with 2 of our neighbors. A coupel weeks ago we had a different neighbor over for dinner. We own a parcel fo land maybe a couple acres that is not attached to our main property. It was these neighbors we had over for lunch. After lunch they ask us to walk back with them to their house, they want to show us some property we own that we didn't know about. Turns out we own a little patch of land that the neighbor has been using for parking. That was really nice, if he wouldn't have done that we would never have known about it.

We have made an effort to be on a first name basis with our neighbors and be friendly, but not "in their business."

We do have one neighbor who is a PIA but even him we manage to get along with okay. Do you think it is possible to turn this guy? Instead of being advisarial is there any hope as Eddie Walker said to kill them with kindness.

It is a long hard road when neighbors become adversaries. I would even suggest that after the survey that you invite A & B to lunch in town first then see your lawyer after lunch.

You jsut don't know, neighbor A may not have the $$ to fix the road. What may seem like an ordinary expense to you might be an extraordiany expense to him. All right he's an xxhole, but look Eddie Walker managed to get a diverse group together and get it done amicably. You owe it to yourself to at least try the carrot before you pull out the stick.

You sound very very very reasonable adn I cna't fault your approaches thus far, far from it. Can you go one step further?

 

[rox]

I am not 100% sure I am able to visualize the lots.

if ti is not too much trouble could you possible sketch something out in Paintshop and save it as a .jpg file and post it.

What I'm not clear about is that you have a different 20ft strip that can et you out to the road that neighbor A is growing grapes on? Is that correct?

Currently the existig road all 3 of you have an easement to cross the property of the others. In hindsight before I would have boughten that gravel for "my" portion of the road that you bought a few years back, you could have had this discussion at that time. You didn't ask and nobody contributed to that part you repaired.

Do you think things would work out better if you asked neighbors C & A to a face to face meting with your lawyer in his/her office. That might be better than a letter from the attorney. A meeting with the lawyer might be just what is needed to get everybody talking with each other. And the only way this is going to work out even half way decent is if you are all able to talk about it, together.

Perhaps your approach can be, the surveyor finished so with this latest information can we all get together and work out a plan that is good for everybody?

We are fortunate, we just had lunch today at our hosue with 2 of our neighbors. A coupel weeks ago we had a different neighbor over for dinner. We own a parcel fo land maybe a couple acres that is not attached to our main property. It was these neighbors we had over for lunch. After lunch they ask us to walk back with them to their house, they want to show us some property we own that we didn't know about. Turns out we own a little patch of land that the neighbor has been using for parking. That was really nice, if he wouldn't have done that we would never have known about it.

We have made an effort to be on a first name basis with our neighbors and be friendly, but not "in their business."

We do have one neighbor who is a PIA but even him we manage to get along with okay. Do you think it is possible to turn this guy? Instead of being advisarial is there any hope as Eddie Walker said to kill them with kindness.

It is a long hard road when neighbors become adversaries. I would even suggest that after the survey that you invite A & B to lunch in town first then see your lawyer after lunch.

You jsut don't know, neighbor A may not have the $$ to fix the road. What may seem like an ordinary expense to you might be an extraordiany expense to him. All right he's an xxhole, but look Eddie Walker managed to get a diverse group together and get it done amicably. You owe it to yourself to at least try the carrot before you pull out the stick.

You sound very very very reasonable adn I cna't fault your approaches thus far, far from it. Can you go one step further?

 

[EddieWalker]

How long have you had the property and do you have title insurance?

Before you can get title insurance, don't you have to have a survey? Did you get a loan for the land and title insurance?

In one instance that I know of, the neighbor had built their house just over the property line and the survey corners were moved. A survey was done and then the other owner also had a survey done to confirm the results.

Both surveys said the house was across the line. The title company was contacted and they refused to do anything. The lawers got involvled and the title company changed there tune. Said they would handle all the expenses but wouldn't refund the amount paid for the land.

The property lines were redrawn with the same amount of land restored, but the line was changed.

In the end, everyone was happy, but it took some serious threats tot the title company to fix it.

Don't know if this helps you any or not,
Eddie

 

[EddieWalker]

How long have you had the property and do you have title insurance?

Before you can get title insurance, don't you have to have a survey? Did you get a loan for the land and title insurance?

In one instance that I know of, the neighbor had built their house just over the property line and the survey corners were moved. A survey was done and then the other owner also had a survey done to confirm the results.

Both surveys said the house was across the line. The title company was contacted and they refused to do anything. The lawers got involvled and the title company changed there tune. Said they would handle all the expenses but wouldn't refund the amount paid for the land.

The property lines were redrawn with the same amount of land restored, but the line was changed.

In the end, everyone was happy, but it took some serious threats tot the title company to fix it.

Don't know if this helps you any or not,
Eddie

 

[sanmigmike]

Right now his portion of the road is still a mess, we are making arrangments to have the "flag" portion of the lot (the 20 foot wide road of ours and the 20 foot road for the other neighbor) surveyed and then see what he says. It does indeed have grapes growing on it and he owns parcels on both sides so it will be painful for him to give up using it for free.

Not sure why it was done but indeed we have an easement to the public road over his property and so does our neighbor, the way it looks to me in the deed is all three of us have an easement over all three parcels. Don't know why. It was divided about 30 or 40 years ago.

The other neighbor and I both have 20 foot wide flag poles on the other side of the property that is not an easment. A pain.

He is grinning and waving to the wife and kids when they drive by?

 

[Parttimer]

In response to why it was cut in that way, It was all one piece at one time 30-40 years ago which you have said. The original property owner may have cut it to sell off or for family or for monies. The 20' strips are reserved for "real" ownership to the road's Right-of Way. The easement is usually used to minimize how many "driveways/roads" are cut in and minimize disturbace for sediment up-keep, drainage etc. Good way to do it if all are amicable. Not always the real world. Good forthought to include the reserve strip of land to the ROW.

Not going to make it easy to sell if you do not pacify your abutter "A" in some way. Good luck with your mission.

There are so many diferent rules, My wifes parents live in south central PA. There is a road that traverses there 200+ acres. They own the land and the road is set up as an easment for purposes of rights of passage. They do not have to up-keep the road, the township does this. But the whole thing makes me nervouse with liability.

 

[sendero]

I hope it works out for you.

I have a shared road also, my 40 acres being a land-locked parcel 3/4 of a mile from the country road.

In my county, you have to OWN a 30 foot easement from your parcel to a country road. But, there was a problem. The guy I bought from wants to be able to sell another parcel off the road (one "on" my road so to speak) so he has to maintain another 30 foot easement. Problem is, his 30 foot easement has a pond on it So we made a "mutual perpetual sharing agreement" a part of the deed.

The guy is cheap but he surprised me last year by being willing to buy 4 semi-loads of crushed rock if I'd buy another 4. The road isn't great, but it's passable in all weather, and for the time being that's good enough.

I'm hoping and praying he sell his land, I'd rather deal with just about anyone else in maintaining the road. But its been for sale for 4 years and no serious offers yet - because he's asking too much

 

[sanmigmike]

Much to my disgust my wife stopped us from seeing a lawyer and getting it surveyed. About two weeks ago we got a letter from his lawyer telling us that there is an easement and a written agreement for the road maintenence. (Just what I told him and what he said didn't exist!) We of course had last talked to him in June and now he is demanding we live up to the agreement he said didn't exist, not sure why the sudden rush. Considering that it has been a bit wet here in Oregon I am not sure that this is the time to doing much road work.

The story on using our land has gone from no mention of it, to "I am not on your land and if I was I would move off of it" to "There was a written agreement..." nothing in writing yet but I will go for that since it would stop him from trying to keep it. Also it wasn't recorded and the easement covers the use of the shared road.

Also our neighbor, the better one is also caught up in this but has also not paid him any money but they didn't get a letter...don't think that will look good. He has also blocked part of the easement with posts horizontal on the ground with rebar sticking up out of them...some of rebar has over a foot exposed. Yet it has been his trucks (two large box vans), employees and tractor work (turning his tractor on the road and chewing it up) damaging the road. I think my finding the easement paperwork and agreement has got him beyond thinking straight and at this point I am assuming it will have to be dealt with by lawyers and a court.

I'll try to come up with a drawing.

Oh, and to add to the joy, my wife broke her ankle (almost a week wait until she had surgery but it went well) and my daughter totaled her (our) truck. My wife had just started work to get health insurance. I think 2007 has to be a better year!

 

[EddieWalker]

Thanks for the update. Sounds like a mess. Have you been documenting everything and taking pictures? There really isn't anything as powerful as pictures to show what's going on.

Good luck,
Eddie

 

[rox]

I'll try to come up with a drawing.

Oh, and to add to the joy, my wife broke her ankle (almost a week wait until she had surgery but it went well) and my daughter totaled her (our) truck. My wife had just started work to get health insurance. I think 2007 has to be a better year!

Mike, Well Merry Christmas to you!

The posts with re-barb does appear to be an act of war over the road.
What I would do is take a picture of the obsticle and send it to his attorney, stapled to the letter the attorney wrote to you.

Just a nice note with the pic, "Suggest you speak to your client about blocking the easement, I will be contracting out the removal of the obsticle next week and forward you the bill. This is an impediment to emergency services and dangerous for myself and our family to drive around."

Then I would go out in a week, about 2 or 3am, with my tractor and push the obsitcle off the road. I have to agree with you, your gut instincts are correct, you do need to first get that survey and then see an attorney. When you get the survey I hope you pound down thick metal stakes into the ground. Actually if you have access to GPS, take a hand held unit and get the GPS coordinates of your lot lines written down. I don't trust this guy, he'll go out there and remove the pins. After the survey at least drive some posts into the ground and string some rope, doesn't even ahve to be a full fence, just a physical object like a rope that indicates the lot line.

I also wouldn't hide form him, when I ordered my survey I would go down there and talk to him or his wife and let them know that you are payig for the survery and you don't want any of the markers removed. I would do this before the surveyor came out. Now I knwo that rope is going to go across his grape vines, but so what, lay it out and mark your property. After you pulled the rope I would probably also take construction marking paint, the kind that comes in a spray can, and paint my lot line on the ground. I would for sure pull a string between the pins, and spray paint the ground.

If you get into any altercations when you tell him to pull his grape vines, the cops are going to be on your side if they can see a physical marking of the lot lines, a painted line or a rope or a sting . I know from experience with a neighbor 20 years ago. When we called the cops, they saw the lot line, it was only a string, and everything went our way.

Your only chance on the road getting repaired as i see it, is if the 3rd neighbor can be convinced to be a negotiator. You could always do the Eddie Walker option, rent the equipment and doze out your own road on your 20 foot strip. You will get your money back onthe investment you put into the road. It will increase your property value. When you go to sell, potential buyers are going to have a much better impression of you property by approaching it on a decent road, not fancy but decent. Think if you had to sell right now, that bad road is decreasing the value of your property, and justifiably.

again merry christmas and I truly hope 2007 is a better eyar for you.

 

[BillyP]

Mike, I just noticed this thread and quickly read through it. I have to admit it was hard for me to follow your descriptions.

You should have consulted an attorney from the get go. As far as the 100 bucks per for road maintenance, that sounds more than fair. The way I look at it is neighbor C should be paying 2/3 and you 1/3.

Merry Christmas

 

[sanmigmike]

Not much has really changed, he has scraped once, just the surface of part of the road, no gravel no breaking down the potholes, the some of the potholes have grown to over six feet in diameter.

Yesterday the forecast seemed pretty good, so I went down to a section that "might" be on his property and did some work. Rained on and off since then. If he had some out and yelled at me I was going to respond with his comment to me (one of at least four different ideas on why he is growing grapes on my property). "Hey if you think I am on your land get it surveyed and marked..."

Did talk to the county yesterday and it turns out we are on Residential Farm Forestry land. Selling wholesale (wine bottles) isn't not a use for this land. Need a permit and certain conditions have to be met. No permit and none of the usual conditions have been met. Parking for workers, limit traffic and truck size and so on. So it is going to code enforcement. He had earlier use violations on this property as well as another bit of property he owns. If he was an honest and ethical type and supported my property rights as much as his own I would never have checked on this and to be honest as long as he takes care of the damage his workers and his trucks (32,000 gvw) do to the road I would not care.

For those of you that wonder what the problem is, this did start when I said that the road agreement might not be enought money and that we had an easement (we didn't really need his permission) for access on all three parcels. Also I brought up the fact that he was using MY land without my permisson (no easement). Called me a liar and ordered me off of his property. All that is simple public record and available to all, something he claimed not to know as well as not know about the easement and road maint. agreement.

So, until he is off my property I am unwilling to do more than the road agreement and I spend well over $100 a year just on my portion of the road alone and that right now is the only portion that has any work done on it for over three and a half years.

 

[rox]

Glad you updated us. So if i am understanding correctly then, you are just fixing up your portion of the road and not taking any action on him fixing up his portion? Whatever happened to the obsitcles he put int he road? The posts with the rebarb.

To bad you couldn't work it out amicably. Now with you ratting him out for code violations that possiblity is beyond remote. Good thing you have that ability to dig your own drive to the main road and ignore him. Not everybody has that so you at least have that in your back pocket.

 

[BillyP]

Not much has really changed, he has scraped once, just the surface of part of the road, no gravel no breaking down the potholes, the some of the potholes have grown to over six feet in diameter.

Yesterday the forecast seemed pretty good, so I went down to a section that "might" be on his property and did some work. Rained on and off since then. If he had some out and yelled at me I was going to respond with his comment to me (one of at least four different ideas on why he is growing grapes on my property). "Hey if you think I am on your land get it surveyed and marked..."

Did talk to the county yesterday and it turns out we are on Residential Farm Forestry land. Selling wholesale (wine bottles) isn't not a use for this land. Need a permit and certain conditions have to be met. No permit and none of the usual conditions have been met. Parking for workers, limit traffic and truck size and so on. So it is going to code enforcement. He had earlier use violations on this property as well as another bit of property he owns. If he was an honest and ethical type and supported my property rights as much as his own I would never have checked on this and to be honest as long as he takes care of the damage his workers and his trucks (32,000 gvw) do to the road I would not care.

For those of you that wonder what the problem is, this did start when I said that the road agreement might not be enought money and that we had an easement (we didn't really need his permission) for access on all three parcels. Also I brought up the fact that he was using MY land without my permisson (no easement). Called me a liar and ordered me off of his property. All that is simple public record and available to all, something he claimed not to know as well as not know about the easement and road maint. agreement.

So, until he is off my property I am unwilling to do more than the road agreement and I spend well over $100 a year just on my portion of the road alone and that right now is the only portion that has any work done on it for over three and a half years.

After all this time you still haven't consulted a lawyer

 

[InlineDieselFan]

Wow what a mess, I had skipped over this in the past, because I have no easments, and it was a long read and download on dial-up.

My neighbor hit me up for a 30' easment two weeks ago, I told him no.

This thread just proves why.

steve

 

[RonMar]

Did you get a survey? As mentioned, nothing better than clear markings of the lines and the situation. There should be a plot map with dimensions with your deed/title paperwork. That and a tape measure from known points, say on neighbor "C"'s side) should at least allow you to find or re-establish the proper corner markers with a reasonable ammount of accuracy. In addition to marking out the corner coordinates with GPS, drive a large metal pipe several inches below grade right next to the official corner markers. These are much harder to remove, if they are ever discovered and can easilly be located with a metal detector. Another option is to mark the pin on 2 axis and remove it, auger a hole where the pin was several feet deep with a 3PH post hole digger and pour it in with concrete, then replace the pin in it's correct location to cure in the crete.

GET a LAWYER! document the property discressions and the road blockages done with blocks and re-bar. That is possibly criminal if bodilly injury or property damage can result from your inability to avoid them while transiting your legal access point to your land(similar to booby trapping your home to deliberatly injur a burgular).

You may find more issue with the grapes, as like trees in an orchard, they may be considered a permanent installation/structure. There may be setback restrictions so not only do they need to be on his side of the line, they may need to be a certain distance back inside his property to be legal. Don't agree in any way shape or form with them being on your land. Continued acceptance of them being there implies consent! You already summed it up, you bought it, you pay taxes on it, yet he is using it for free! Dont enter into any agreement with him involving money or paying for use. You take one cent, then he is a tennant and tennants have rights, tresspassers do not(at least in this sense). what is your property insurance going to do if he rolls his tractor over and injurs himself on your land then says it was your fault and puts in a claim against your insurance or attempts to sue you? Did I say get a lawyer?

You say he and his wife are not citizens of the US? I wonder on what asis he holds a green card. I wonder how old his green card is? They are not good forever anymore(since about 1989?). Criminal charges and zoneing violations might not be looked upon favorably come renewal time...

Good Luck

 

[schmism]

Before we purchesed the ~4.5 acers of our property we had it surveyed at a cost to us of $2K

we found out that there was nearly 3/4 of an acer that was not deeded to either myself nor the neighbor and the area comprises a triangle that my 400' driveway and a "sizeable" portion of his front yard sits on.

so you can understand what happened when a pink stake showed up in in the middle of his front yard... (he showed up at our surveyer's office asking questions)

it took another $800 to have a custom title search done, and a layer to draw up the paperwork to properly dead my driveway to me, and my neighbors front yard to him.

Should pins go missing (the neighbor digs them up) the surveyer will (well mine will) come out and resurvey and replace them for fee.


a "shared" drive is no ones specific property. He cant keep you from fixing the bad portion on your own. (we covered this when there was talk of the neighbor wanting to use my driveway to access his property, i was DEAD set against it. we were able to work around that issue, he does not have any right to my driveway)

IF you want the grapes removed, youll need to get it surveyed, then have a lawyer send him a letter stating that his property is crossing the line and give a reasonable amount of time to have the property removed. (note a solution can also include him purchesing the property from you) Should that not occur you are free to remove it by any means nessacary.

A recent story about a developer my wife is working with....

He is putting in a new subdivision, and ran accross a fiber optic line 35' outside the area it should have been. It ment a major redesign to detention basin that resided in that location. (an addtional 10K in engineering cost). He inquired with the phone company about moving it. they said, shure you pay to move it, could run as much as $10mill. He set out to find the easment they had for it. (again laywers that specialize in land disupute, happend to be the same one we personally used for our driveway issue) are involved. Turns out the phone company has NO easment. Therefore the devloper was able to FORCE the phone company to purchase an easment from them, MOVE the line at THERE expense, AND pay for damages due to the project being held up.

IN short, when it comes to property disputes, survey's and lawyers, while expensive, are the proper and best way to go about it.