Replacing hydro pump--what else do to while there?

[Obi-Wan-YJ]

My XR4145 (manual tranny) is at the dealer today to diagnose low hydraulic power when hot. We suspect that they'll find that the hydraulic pump needs to be replaced. I don't know what labor is required to replace that pump, but, if they have to do that, are there any other upgrades or modifications that I should have them do while they're in there?

Are there higher-capacity pumps available? Should I have a 3rd line added for the front (for a grapple, etc)? Does the labor for adding a 3rd line overlap much with the labor for replacing the pump? Is there anything else I should be looking at in order to save labor costs down the road?

This is a 2016 model with about 220 hours on it. I've only owned it for 1.5 years (50 hours) and have not replaced any fluids during that time.

It's in the shop because although the loader or 3-pt can lift plenty of weight when cold, as soon as the hydraulics heat up, the lift capacity drops dramatically. After an hour running a 3pt tiller, it can no longer lift the tiller off the ground. The loader can carry a single 1-ton pallet down my driveway, but can't pick up the next pallet. Fluid's full & looks good. Filter is new. No visible leaks.

 

[oldnslo]

My very first question is if the pump has failed would be why at such low hours.

If at dealer they should clean the suction screen and inspect the suction hose if it has one for cracks or if getting soft. Should also replace hydraulic filter.

Adding 3rd function for grapple would be totally separate from replacing the pump.

 

[Obi-Wan-YJ]

I should mention that in the 18 months I've owned it, the 3-point always lifted slower than I thought it should. A few weeks ago, I replaced the original-to-me hydraulic filter with a new, LS-branded one. Now the 3-point lifts plenty fast. However, I still have the same loader performance described above. I wonder if the 210-hour filter was clogged due to the same problem that's causing the poor performance when hot.

I should also mention that I've never been able to make the loader joystick lift the arms and tilt the bucket at the same time, no matter how carefully I move the joystick. Should I be able to do that? Does that hint at this same problem?

 

[Eagle1]

I should mention that in the 18 months I've owned it, the 3-point always lifted slower than I thought it should. A few weeks ago, I replaced the original-to-me hydraulic filter with a new, LS-branded one. Now the 3-point lifts plenty fast. However, I still have the same loader performance described above. I wonder if the 210-hour filter was clogged due to the same problem that's causing the poor performance when hot.

I should also mention that I've never been able to make the loader joystick lift the arms and tilt the bucket at the same time, no matter how carefully I move the joystick. Should I be able to do that? Does that hint at this same problem?

At what RPM? hard do when below 1800.... more flow closer to PTO speed.

 

[oldnslo]

I suspect the filter you replaced was on the pump inlet since it changed operating speed. If that is true you were cavitating( starving pump of oil) which destroys pumps. That could explain your failing pump if my above presumption is correct.

 

[GS650GL]

The hydraulic pump and steering pump are located on the side of the engine so they are easy to change. There is nothing else related to the pump that would involve adding third function. You should do a 250 hour service and change the hydraulic oil as long as you are replacing the pump. It should have had a 50 hour service which involves changing the hydraulic filters after break-in. If the hitch raises faster now after changing the filter it means the old filter was getting restricted which could have lead to shortened pump life. Also, if one of the remote hydraulic levers is not in neutral (detented) or the hitch is not cancelling when raised all the way, it will deadhead the hydraulics and blow the relief valve constantly which can overheat the oil in a short time and also put more load on the pump. If a remote lever is not in neutral, usually the hitch will not raise at all. I have seen a few that the hitch did not cancel and was still trying to raise even though it was all the way up, which also deadheads the pump and can cause remotes and third function to not work. Steering will still work because it has it's own pump and relief valve but still uses the same oil. Check to make sure that when the hitch arms are all the way up, you can still lift them up a couple inches higher by hand to be sure the hitch is cancelling out.
Not being able to raise and tilt at the same time is totally unrelated and is a separate issue. It depends on the design of the loader valve. Some you can do both and some you can't. Some have parallel priority circuit and some have no priority, and some have better feathering spools to give better control. The joystick control cables need to be in good shape and adjusted correctly also.

 

[Obi-Wan-YJ]

You should do a 250 hour service and change the hydraulic oil as long as you are replacing the pump.

The service manual says that the hydraulic oil is a 500-hour replacement. I'm sure a good bit of it will necessarily get drained & replaced in the process of replacing the pump, though. If they want to replace it all, that's fine by me.

It should have had a 50 hour service which involves changing the hydraulic filters after break-in. If the hitch raises faster now after changing the filter it means the old filter was getting restricted which could have lead to shortened pump life.

I'd love to know what caused that initially. Maybe some crud got in through the fill hole? Maybe the wrong fluid was used at the 50-hour replacement? I bought this tractor from a dealer who bought it from an auction several states away, so I don't know whether the 50-hour service was performed by a dealer or the owner (or even at all).

Also, if one of the remote hydraulic levers is not in neutral (detented) or the hitch is not cancelling when raised all the way, it will deadhead the hydraulics and blow the relief valve constantly which can overheat the oil in a short time and also put more load on the pump. If a remote lever is not in neutral, usually the hitch will not raise at all. I have seen a few that the hitch did not cancel and was still trying to raise even though it was all the way up, which also deadheads the pump and can cause remotes and third function to not work.

There are no detents on either of my 3-point levers, and no mention in the owners manual of setting the green draft control lever to any particular setting if you're not using draft control. When I'm just driving around, the blue 3-point lever generally has the arms raised somewhere in the top half, but rarely pegged all the way up.

I'm not sure what you mean by "deadheading." Can you elaborate?

Not being able to raise and tilt at the same time is totally unrelated and is a separate issue. It depends on the design of the loader valve. Some you can do both and some you can't. Some have parallel priority circuit and some have no priority, and some have better feathering spools to give better control. The joystick control cables need to be in good shape and adjusted correctly also.

That's unfortunate. I hope I get lucky and that feature exists when I get my tractor back from the shop. It's a little annoying to have to stop raising my load at several points so that I can level it out.

 

[Obi-Wan-YJ]

OK, so I took my LS XR4145 to the nearest New Holland dealer for a few days. They tested the flow rate of the pump, which was at 6.4 gpm when cold and about 5.4 gpm when the fluid heated up. They declared that to be the cause of my problem and replaced the hydraulic pump for $2000. They measured the flow at a solid 6 gpm no matter the temp. They did not test the pressure, even when I asked them to.

I brought the tractor home yesterday and tried to move some more 1-ton pallets of bricks using my 400-lb forks (2400 lb total load). I have a 500-lb water tank hanging off the 3-pt for ballast. It lifted the first just fine (6" off the ground, transported 50 yards). It struggled to lift the second. It refused to lift the third off the ground. This is the same behavior I had before, with the old pump.

When I called them this morning, they (the service manager & the tech) tried to tell me that I was lifting too much weight. The loader is rated for 2700 lbs at full height (at the pin) and 3800 lbs of break-out force. The center of gravity of my load is about 24" in front of the loader pin. They claimed that the weight of the loader itself had to be subtracted from the rated load, which I'm sure is BS. They also said that the 3800-lb break-out rating only applied to digging, and not to lifting a loose load 6" off the ground, which I'm also not sure I believe.

If a loader is rated for X lbs, will it lift X+300 lbs for a short time when the fluid is cold, or will it simply refuse no matter what? How much difference should the fluid temp make for a properly functioning loader?

I'm taking the tractor back to them next week for them to inspect further. I did not yet confront them about why they performed a $2000 pump replacement if they thought this was normal behavior.

What do you experts think? They sound inept to me, but I'd like to get a better repair out of them since they already have $2000 of my money with no improvement in performance. This dealer is a regional chain with a good reputation (KanEquip). The next-closest dealer is an hour away and of unknown reputation.

 

[oldnslo]

Not lifting is flow loss - inability to build pressure. Next time you use the tractor or just do this as a simple non-invasive test.

With everything cold or at start up check temperature of pump housing vs pump inlet and outlet lines when lifting a load. Is pump housing getting significantly hotter than inlet or pressure line? Follow the outlet (pressure) line to the next component. Is anything there getting hot quickly compared to inlet? Follow line to next component. Again check for heat.

Flow escaping creates heat and if you have 6 GPM going somewhere it will get hot at that point.

It is something between pump and loader valve or possibly a component in loader valve itself.

 

[Obi-Wan-YJ]

@oldnslo Do this with a laser thermometer, I assume? I've always wanted an excuse to go buy one. Should I do this at idle speed, or does it matter?

The owner's manual says the hydraulic system is rated at 8.2 gpm. The dealer measured both the old & new pumps at just 6 gpm. Is this a difference in where the flow is measured? A 25% reduction in rated flow concerns me. They claim to have replaced the pump with a 12cc model, which I know is the proper size.