Questions About Propane

   / Questions About Propane #1  

bmac

Veteran Member
Joined
May 18, 2002
Messages
1,503
Location
Newnan, GA
Tractor
NH TC29D
Our new home that is currently under construction will have propane to fuel the heat and water heater. If budget permits, I plan to have a 2nd tank for a backup power generator. Obviously, the buried tanks have to be accessible to the delivery truck. But is there a maximum distance from the house that they can be located. I'm trying to figure out the driveway and parking design now and don't want to have any interference from the underground propane tanks.

Any advice here?

Thanks
 
   / Questions About Propane #2  
Propane generators require a larger supply of incoming propane to run the engines. I have a large tank located just outside of the garage where the generator is located for this reason. One very important thing to know about propane generators is that they are available in 1800 & 3600 RPM. Mine is a 3600 RPM unit and it screams to say the least. I know someone that has the 1800 RPM unit and it is much quieter. The 1800 RPM units are more expensive, but are worth every bit of the additional expense. So much so, that I intend to change mine as soon as I find the generator that meets my requirements. If you can swing the extra cost, a outside mounted generator is a lot quieter and doesn't present the problem of how to exhaust the engine. It is my preference now to find a diesel generator since I have a supply of home heating oil to run it. Diesel is the least expensive method, followed by propane, and gasoline is the most expensive. If you have a well pump, make sure that the generator that you purchase is capable of starting the pump and meeting the other demand requirements. If this is going to be a project for later on, then at least make the cross over connection in the electrical system to allow for the addition of a generator. While building, this will only add a few hundred extra dollars to the cost. Later on, the cost can be triple what it is when building to make the change. I have mine designed that the entire service can be put on the generator. Since my new generator won't be capable of handling the full 200 amps, then I will just shut down the non essential breakers when running on generator power. This is also a consideration when running the electrical wiring for the home. Consider separation of the breakers for the lighting from the wall outlets. If your home is large, then also consider having sub panels for different areas, that way, you don't have to go to the main box with all the wiring. If you need additional advise, just post or send me a PM. Unfortunately people never consider how the electric and water should be run in a new home and leave it to the installers to design it the way that they want. Problem with this is that they will many times do it the least expensive way and pocket the difference between cost and quote without regard for how it will ultimately work out for the homeowner.
 
   / Questions About Propane #3  
Not really any limitation to the distance LP Gas can be piped except expense. I'd like to have my tank buried outside my fence, in the recessed entrance area before one gets to my gate. This is so the propane trucks don't have to go through the gate and travel on my driveway.

This will put the tank about 500' from the house and another 150' from the barn. I'll trench down my driveway and use polyethelene piping that's intended to LP Gas use.

The key is to size it properly to avoid pressure loss, just like sizing electric wire properly. The other key is that all propane installations today use first and second stage regulators. The first stage regulator on the tank reduces the tank pressure (which can vary greatly due to temperature, etc) to around 10 psi Then, at the point of use (your house) there is a secondary regulator. If you don't have much plumbing, the secondary regulator may reduce it all the way down to appliance pressure, which is 11" of water column, or approximately 1/2 psi. If you have extensive plumbing, the secondary regulator may reduce it to around 2 psi, and appliance regulators are used for the final reduction.

In my case, I'll have a secondary regulator at my house and one at my barn. From the house, I'll also take off to a picnic pavillion with a 2psi branch and use an appliance regulator at the built-in grill.

There are sizing charts available that show the correct sizes of pipe to use at a given presurre over various distances. The more pressure, the smaller the pipe has to be. I have the chart packed away; let me see if I can find one online.

OK, here's one. The capacity is measured in BTU's per hour; this is something like amps. You determine total BTUs needed by adding up all the applicances that are likely to be running at the same time. For example, if the furnace has a requirement for 150,000 BTU/h and the water heater for 30,000, you need piping capable of delivering 180 thousands of BTUs. Add a gas range and it might jump to 245 thousands; a gas grill might be 30 to 60 more. You could run your generator on the same pipe off the same tank if you size it correctly; I found a reference for 12KW to 15KW generators that require approximately 200 to 260 thousands. So, a total might easily be 500 to 600 thousand BTU/hr IF everything was going to be running at the same time.

Using the chart, at 10 psi, 1/2" IPS pipe will supply 508 thousand @ 400'. Going to 3/4" will supply 1,072 thousand at the same distance. If you want to go more than 400', I'm sure there are other charts.

Polyethelene gas piping is perfectly safe for outdoor, underground use. It's what the gas companies use. You do need special risers where the piping comes up out of the ground; the polyehtelene must remain buried.

By using one tank for the house and the generator, you may save enough money to pay for some of the pipe (if you plan to buy the tanks). Also, while LP Gas has a long shelf life in the tank, it doesn't hurt to keep it circulating through use, which would be less likely to happen with a separate tank for the generator.
 
   / Questions About Propane #4  
Don, does he need to be concerned with the heat of vaporization fot the generator use? Could it be that a bigger single tank would take care of providing enough surface area to vaporize the fuel for the long running generator?

I've a single 250 gallon tank. It is only be filled to 85% capacity and refilled at around 25% to 35% of capacity. So, the usable capacity of that tank is only around 150 gallons. In the coldest months of winter I've had several occasions where that has only lasted 3 weeks. I'm thinking of having the tank replaced with a 500 gallon tank.
 
   / Questions About Propane #5  
If the tank is above ground, then the larger surface area does provide more vaporization. Of course, it's only the wetted surface (where the liquid propane is in contact with the tank's internal surface) where heat can be drawn for vaporization, so as the level drops, the rate of vaporization also drops.

bmac said he planned to install his tank(s) underground, so it won't make any difference -- there's always plenty of thermal heat available in the ground to handle vaporization. That's another advantage of underground tanks.
 
   / Questions About Propane #6  
If you have already decided on Propane, you really should have already decided on a supplier and be talking to them about this. The propane company can advise you on how far their hoses will go and what _their_ requirements for delivery are.

If you haven't, I would suggest you find a supplier as soon as possible to lock in summer prices for your winter supply by pre-buying. Propane prices are extremely volatile, and seem to vary wildly, depending upon where you are located and what the current market conditions are like, but they are always much higher in the winter. Nobody I've talked to locally seems to think reasonable prices will return anytime soon--if ever.

The manager of the local Suburban Propane facility that we are now buying from is very pessimistic about the industry's ability to continue to offer lock-in contracts.

Personally, I can't wait to get away from the stuff.
 
   / Questions About Propane #7  
Junkman has already told you that you need a larger supply of incoming propane for a generator, but I'd suggest you do some checking to find out just how much one the size you want actually uses. We had a 4.5kw Kohler in our fifth-wheel travel trailer and it worked great, but it really did use a lot of gas. Of course in that RV, we only had two 30 pound (7.5 gallon) bottles.
 
   / Questions About Propane #8  
A friend that is a large user just locked in a price of $1.30 per gallon. I don't know how he did it, because I can't get the same supplier to do the same for me. Best that I could do was Selkirk pricing plus 20 cents. I believe that it is all based on volume..... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
   / Questions About Propane #9  
We changed suppliers last fall and got a new user summer rate lock-in, but it was still $1.73 gal. We currently have a full tank plus 100 gal on the books, which might get us through the upcoming winter, if it isn't too severe.

Right now, I'm waiting to see what the summer rate lock-in will be for the upcoming heating season. No word yet.

This is TVA territory, and we are thinking seriously about a geothermal heat pump for the future.
 
   / Questions About Propane
  • Thread Starter
#10  
<font color="blue"> The 1800 RPM units are more expensive, but are worth every bit of the additional expense. </font>

I'll look for one of these. Thanks.

<font color="blue"> If you can swing the extra cost, a outside mounted generator is a lot quieter and doesn't present the problem of how to exhaust the engine. </font>

I didn't even know they made inside units. I assumed that it would be an outside unit.

<font color="blue"> I have mine designed that the entire service can be put on the generator. </font>

That is what I would like to do. Of course, that translates into big $$$ from what I've seen, so I may have to scale it back some.

<font color="blue"> If you need additional advise, just post or send me a PM. </font>

I'll do that. Thanks for the offer. Will probably be later tonight or tomorrow.

Thanks for the reply.
 

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