Question?

[jasimpson]

Rutwad,


I looked online at the ASV website at the RC100. The machine has 100 engine horsepower but they only claim to have 73 hydraulic horsepower. We demoed the case with the bradco XL 165-5 and seemed to run great. The BIC super HY-FLOW hydraulic system is a add on for case above and beyond standard hy-flow options. We talked with all the mulching head mfg. and they had no clue about the system but assured with those numbers it would work. I also think we struck some luck because case will warranty the machine bumper to bumper for three years or 3000 hours. No other machine mfg. would offer that. The case dealer ordered the head for us and had no problem with it being run on there machine.

Thanks for your information we will take all the help we can get.

 

[QwikDraw]

Good luck! (with that CASE)

Let's face it the salesman is going to tell you what you want to hear. The factory is going to pay when it breaks.

HP and TORQUE are as important as flow and psi.

 

[john_bud]

Good luck! (with that CASE)

Let's face it the salesman is going to tell you what you want to hear. The factory is going to pay when it breaks.

HP and TORQUE are as important as flow and psi.

This is just my understanding of this topic. Maybe worth looking at or not.


HP is equivalent to hydraulic PSI

Torque is equivalent to hydraulic Flow

If 2 systems have the same quoted HP and flow and psi - the one with the greater engine torque will get more work done in the field. Actually, it will be able to sustain a higher average output level, but that translates to harder to stall and easier to recover.

just my $0.02

jb

 

[Digdeep]

Rutwad,


I looked online at the ASV website at the RC100. The machine has 100 engine horsepower but they only claim to have 73 hydraulic horsepower. We demoed the case with the bradco XL 165-5 and seemed to run great. The BIC super HY-FLOW hydraulic system is a add on for case above and beyond standard hy-flow options. We talked with all the mulching head mfg. and they had no clue about the system but assured with those numbers it would work. I also think we struck some luck because case will warranty the machine bumper to bumper for three years or 3000 hours. No other machine mfg. would offer that. The case dealer ordered the head for us and had no problem with it being run on there machine.

Thanks for your information we will take all the help we can get.

I just think you should demo another machine for a reference. without that you may think the Case machine is the best thing since sliced bread even though another machine may run the head heaps better. I can virtually assure you that the RC100 will run that head better than the Case machine due to engine torque (304ft lbs compared to 263ft lbs for the Case-14% more), engine hp (92 net hp compared to 82 net hp for the Case- 11% more), load sensing hydraulics vs none, better cooling, 20gal hyd resevoir compared to 6.5gal in the Case (68% more oil for cooling), etc. These are very big factors for running highflow attachments. In the end you may end up buying the Case but you should at least demo another machine to have something to compare it to. Good luck.

 

[cbturf]

OK I knew when I took all of those physics classes I would use the info some day. Horsepower is the measurement of work and tourque is the measurement of force expressed in a unit of weight in distance (ei pound feet). These two measurements are a function of each other with RPM being the variable and a constant of 5252. Are you lost yet...as a function it looks like hp*5252=T*rpm. To get the torque or an engine take the horsepower at a given rpm. For my FTX 140 the tourque at the maximum rated rpm of 2400 is.
140hp*5252/2400=306.
This relationship is why I like the bigger engines over the smaller ones. When you slow down or stall your drum it is the torque of the engine that will apply the force through the hydraulic sustem to get it spinning again. In my opinion I ignore the horsepower number a focus specifically on the torque number. If horsepower was king all of the big trucks on the road would have those little 6 liter engines that run 14,000 rpm like the ones in formula one cars that are rated at 900hp. But if you look inside those numbers you get the rest of the picture 900*5252/14000=337lb feet of touque. On the other hand a 13L cat engine in the FTX-440 produces only 440hp @ 1800 rpm. 440*5252/1800=1284lb feet of torque. Everyone got it?

 

[Digdeep]

OK I knew when I took all of those physics classes I would use the info some day. Horsepower is the measurement of work and tourque is the measurement of force expressed in a unit of weight in distance (ei pound feet). These two measurements are a function of each other with RPM being the variable and a constant of 5252. Are you lost yet...as a function it looks like hp*5252=T*rpm. To get the torque or an engine take the horsepower at a given rpm. For my FTX 140 the tourque at the maximum rated rpm of 2400 is.
140hp*5252/2400=306.
This relationship is why I like the bigger engines over the smaller ones. When you slow down or stall your drum it is the torque of the engine that will apply the force through the hydraulic sustem to get it spinning again. In my opinion I ignore the horsepower number a focus specifically on the torque number. If horsepower was king all of the big trucks on the road would have those little 6 liter engines that run 14,000 rpm like the ones in formula one cars that are rated at 900hp. But if you look inside those numbers you get the rest of the picture 900*5252/14000=337lb feet of touque. On the other hand a 13L cat engine in the FTX-440 produces only 440hp @ 1800 rpm. 440*5252/1800=1284lb feet of torque. Everyone got it?

Got it. Thats what I've long been saying without all of that math you just laid out. Torque is a huge factor in running a brush cutter under load. I think the CAT 297 is the formula one car that you mention- 90 net hp but only 217ft lbs of torque out of a 3.3L engine yet the theoretical hyd. hp of that machine is 78 hyd. hp..NO way! Once you factor in all of the other elements such as pump type (piston vs gear, direct driven vs belt driven), oil resevoir capacity (heat dissipation), cooler size, air flow through the cooler, etc. it paints a clearer picture. Excellent explanation.

 

[rutwad]

Got it. Thats what I've long been saying without all of that math you just laid out. Torque is a huge factor in running a brush cutter under load. I think the CAT 297 is the formula one car that you mention- 90 net hp but only 217ft lbs of torque out of a 3.3L engine yet the theoretical hyd. hp of that machine is 78 hyd. hp..NO way! Once you factor in all of the other elements such as pump type (piston vs gear, direct driven vs belt driven), oil resevoir capacity (heat dissipation), cooler size, air flow through the cooler, etc. it paints a clearer picture. Excellent explanation.

I agree. Torque is the important # to look at. That is why I would take the RC100 over the Cat (but the pressurized cab would be nice).

And the Case has something like 6 or 7 gallons of hyd. oil. That should cause it to heat up too much too quick, unless Case has a cooling system that makes other manufacturers drool!

 

[Robbie Hegwood]

Quick recap. More hyd hp than engine hp leads to the tractor not relieving when the heads gets into a bind and stalls the engine. The engine going from 2000+ rpm to stop is BAD!!!. Done alot on Rayco's.
Small hyd reservoirs(spell) leads to extremely high temps and usually fire. Plus short fluid and pump life.
Next, I have personally run the 297C and it ran good. I had no idea it was down that much on torque. I will double check that tomorrow at a Cat demo. I'm not promoting/demoting the cat but it ran good.
By all means run as many as you can. If a dealer will not let you demo one what kind of support will the offer. Also do as long a demo as possible and in hottest part of the day. That will tell you alot.
Business side. Could you partner up with a larger outfit. You will run into material that is too big, they can back you up and they usually do not like smaller machines. Good for you.
Keep the questions coming and we'll do our best.
What are of Texas are you in and what's the lay of the land there?

 

[cbturf]

DUDE, I did not even notice the small oil capacity of the case. I know you said it has an auxillary oil cooler that will add both cooling capacity and some volume. But at 41 gallons per minute your oil will circulate 2.5 times per minute, even with added cooling your oil will get hot very quickly. If you like this machine a lot try to rent it for a month or so to see if it will perform. When I bought my ASV I rented it for a couple of months and found out that it was not what I needed. I was out the rent money but I was not stuck with a machine that could not do what I needed.

 

[Digdeep]

Quick recap. More hyd hp than engine hp leads to the tractor not relieving when the heads gets into a bind and stalls the engine. The engine going from 2000+ rpm to stop is BAD!!!. Done alot on Rayco's.
Small hyd reservoirs(spell) leads to extremely high temps and usually fire. Plus short fluid and pump life.
Next, I have personally run the 297C and it ran good. I had no idea it was down that much on torque. I will double check that tomorrow at a Cat demo. I'm not promoting/demoting the cat but it ran good.
By all means run as many as you can. If a dealer will not let you demo one what kind of support will the offer. Also do as long a demo as possible and in hottest part of the day. That will tell you alot.
Business side. Could you partner up with a larger outfit. You will run into material that is too big, they can back you up and they usually do not like smaller machines. Good for you.
Keep the questions coming and we'll do our best.
What are of Texas are you in and what's the lay of the land there?

Robbie you're pretty much on the money except that is is "Impossible" for a machine to produce more hydraulic hp than the engine puts out in net hp. That engine hp will be consumed by the tractor by way of hydraulic flow to the tracks and the lift and tilt cylinders. This is still excluding the "hydraulic hp to the head" and you still have the A/C compressor. If you only have "X" engine hp you can't get "Y-greater" hydraulic hp.

I have it from a reliable source, re. CAT rep that the 297C engine torque is only 217ft lbs. The Bobcat T320 is 232ft lbs, the Case CT450 is 263ft lbs, the JD CT332 can't be much more either because it's only a 3L engine and the RC100 is 304ft lbs.

 

[Digdeep]

DUDE, I did not even notice the small oil capacity of the case. I know you said it has an auxillary oil cooler that will add both cooling capacity and some volume. But at 41 gallons per minute your oil will circulate 2.5 times per minute, even with added cooling your oil will get hot very quickly. If you like this machine a lot try to rent it for a month or so to see if it will perform. When I bought my ASV I rented it for a couple of months and found out that it was not what I needed. I was out the rent money but I was not stuck with a machine that could not do what I needed.

Exactly. The Bobcat T320 only has a 4.7 gal resevoir and put's out 37gpm. Demo, demo, demo! You may end up getting a dedicated mulching machine. I am not in the mulching business but I used to sell Bobcats, love the compact equipment industry, and to a fault am a spec junkie. As far as compact rubber track loaders go there is no machinewith greater hydraulic capability or flexibility (buckets, grapples, ability to work in sensitive areas, etc.) than the ASV RC100, but it may not be what you need due to ground conditions or job sizes. Try them all. As a former salesman I would tell you that are about to make a big financial commitment so do your homework.

 

[cbturf]

DD I have to disagree with you on the HHD surpassing the engine HP. Fluid dynamics make this possible, one example that I like to us on the ability of hydraulic pressure to be multiplied is the fact that my 110lb wife can use a bottle jack to lift up my 8500lb F-450. If you take a 1 inch cylinder and put 1 lb of force on it and it is connected to a 10 in cylinder you will net 10 lbs of force on the other end. This is how a small electric motor can run a 10 ton press at your local machine shop. Robbie is exactly right you need to have your relief system set up just right or you will kill the engine a lot. We had a rental Fecon on the last job to help us get finished faster and the relief was wrong and neither of us could keep the engine running.

Hydraulic machinery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

for the nerds

 

[Digdeep]

DD I have to disagree with you on the HHD surpassing the engine HP. Fluid dynamics make this possible, one example that I like to us on the ability of hydraulic pressure to be multiplied is the fact that my 110lb wife can use a bottle jack to lift up my 8500lb F-450. If you take a 1 inch cylinder and put 1 lb of force on it and it is connected to a 10 in cylinder you will net 10 lbs of force on the other end. This is how a small electric motor can run a 10 ton press at your local machine shop. Robbie is exactly right you need to have your relief system set up just right or you will kill the engine a lot. We had a rental Fecon on the last job to help us get finished faster and the relief was wrong and neither of us could keep the engine running.

I'm definitely with you on the bottle jack and the proper relief settings, but I'm not aware of a hydraulic pump system on a machine that can multiply hyd hp this way. The bottle jack has no place for the oil to go. I'm open to learning more if this is possible on a pump though.

 

[cbturf]

Check out the wikipedia link it spells out all of the physics on the deal. It can be confusing but it really does work.

Calculations
Calculation of the required max. power output for the diesel engine, rough estimation:

(1) Check the max. powerpoint, i.e. the point where pressure times flow reach the max. value.

(2) Ediesel = (Pmax·Qtot)÷η.

Qtot = calculate with the theoretical pump flow for the consumers not including leakages at max. power point.

Pmax = actual pump pressure at max. power point.

Note: η is the total efficiency = (output mechanical power ÷ input mechanical power). For rough estimations, η = 0.75. Add 10-20% (depends on the application) to this power value.

(3) Calculate the required pumpdisplacement from required max. sum of flow for the consumers in worst case and the dieselengine rpm in this point. The max. flow can differ from the flow used for calculation of the diesel engine power. Pump volumetric efficiency average, piston pumps: ηvol= 0.93.

Pumpdisplacement Vpump= Qtot ÷ ndiesel ÷ 0.93.

(4) Calculation of prel. cooler capacity: Heat dissipation from hydraulic oil tanks, valves, pipes and hydraulic components is less than a few percent in standard mobile equipment and the cooler capacity must include some margins. Minimum cooler capacity, Ecooler = 0.25Ediesel

At least 25% of the input power must be dissipated by the cooler when peak power is utilized for long periods. In normal case however, the peak power is used for only short periods, thus the actual cooler capacity required might be considerably less. The oil volume in the hydraulic tank is also acting as a heat accumulator when peak power is used. The system efficiency is very much dependent on the type of hydraulic work tool equipment, the hydraulic pumps and motors used and power input to the hydraulics may vary a lot. Each circuit must be evaluated and the load cycle estimated. New or modified systems must always be tested in practical work, covering all possible load cycles. An easy way of measuring the actual average powerloss in the system is to equip the machine with a test cooler and measure the oiltemperature at cooler inlet, oiltemperature at cooler outlet and the oilflow through the cooler, when the machine is in normal operating mode. From these figures the test cooler powerdissipation can be calculated and this is equal to the powerloss when temperatures are stabilized. From this test the actual required cooler can be calculated to reach specified oiltemperature in the oiltank. One problem can be to assemble the measuring equipment inline, especially the oilflow meter.

In the simplest terms if you apply force T to a lower RPM horsepower goes up.

 

[jasimpson]

Dig Deep

Please check out this web site. www.burlingtoninstallationcorp.com. They have the specs on the BIC super hy-flow system and will give the engine horsepower and hydraulic horsepower. I will get back with yall in a bit. Appreciate all the information.

 

[TMTS]

don't know anything about this machine, but its at least in your state...

Listing Photos - EquipmentTraderOnline.com

good small purpose-built machine...

 

[jasimpson]

To All,

If you go to SalvageSale | Innovative Recovery. Incomparable Results. there is a ASV RC100 with a magnum head for sale at a smoking hot price. I understand that heat is a big issue with the hydraulics. In my opinion more fluid capacity will just allow you to go longer with out stoping for a cool down period. I think how you run and take care of your equipment is a huge factor in your equipment runing efficiantly and without breakdowns. I have demoed a few machines but as far as the packeage that case is offering it is the best deal. The case machine offers a auxillary cooler on the machine and the bradco head. I hope this will help in keeping temp down. We bought and payed for the Case 450CT with a bradco 165-5 head and a tree sheer. We liked this machine the best and have multiple jobs lined up that we need to start. Thank yall so much for all your help. QuikDraw we spoke directly to Case and Bradco and also called BIC to confirm all of there numbers. We did not rely just on the salesman words. He is of course trying to make a living as well. CBTurff if I am not mistaken the Case 450CT puts out only 34 GPM not 41. On ASV web site the total gallons for hydraulic fluid is 20 gallons. The Case had a total of 17 gallons with a 6.5 gallon reserve. I am not seeing a reserve on the ASV website please correct me if I am wrong. Please let me know if I am wrong on any information. Thanks Again.

 

[cbturf]

If you bought the machine already we are just rambling, I am very qualified in that field as well! The ASV website shows a hydraulic capacity of only 20 gal as well. I am well known on this site for RAMBLING about dedicated machines. I am working at full cycle at 8000 feet of elevation and my machine requires no cooldown periods I stop once a day for grease, fuel and to blow out filters. I am running a Fecon FTX-140 dedicated mulcher. I hope you have a lot of sucess and sincerely hope that your machine runs like a top. If that is the CASE then it just gives us more viable options while using you as the guinnea pig. I took one for the team last week and destroyed $1100 worth of fecon knives in 6 hours, some lessons hurt more than others.


A wise man learns from his mistakes...a very wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

 

[jasimpson]

CB,

I hope I did not ruffle any feathers. I will be the test dummie for this machine and give you 100% no bull_ _ _ _ feedback. You have been a big help in this venture. I can not thank you enough. We are looking to purchase a second machine inside of two months and all this information plus the trials with our machine will help with that purchase. We will be doing this as a part time job and it has already turned into a full time job with the jobs on the books.