Putting 'city' water on a farm... lots of ???

[Dadnatron]

OK all you plumbing aficionados, I have a few questions about pressure, backflow valves, and automatic paddock livestock waterers.

Needs:
1. Water to be brought about 1400ft to barn from City water source?
2. At least 2 livestock waterers to be put in, between the city water line and the barn.
3. At least 6 livestock waterers to be put in AFTER/PAST the barn.
4. Water taken another 1200 or so feet past the barn to site of future workshop.
Potential problems as I see it
1. Possibly, the largest tap for this line is 1? This is uncertain, but the lady at the water district said to her knowledge, 1 is max. She is referring me to the main guy who is currently on vacation until Monday for final word. My water guy recommended a 1½" tap for my projected needs. But it was an off the cuff comment, not a calculation.
2. I would like to pull water off the line before the barn for the 2 intervening waterers. I want shut off valves and pressure reducers on each stub and I suspect I will need to have a backflow preventer given they will be coming off the main line to the barn.
3. If 1 is max, how much water would be needed? Is it enough? I don't think there would be a big need for any Constant or high volume use at any given time, except for potentially use in the wash stall. Otherwise, I suspect everything would be random use at all varied locations. Each of which would easily be handled by a 1 line.


Questions:
1. Do I need backflow valves in my situation? I'd rather not be drinking horse spit if I have the option.
2. Would it be better to take a single line off the main line, then split it into 2 different lines for the intervening waterers? Or just take off 2 separate lines at the locations needed? (I think I will be pulling/installing my own water lines to the waterers so other than hassle, the cost of burial won't be the major deciding factor either way.
3. I will have several waterers in small paddocks relatively close together. ie 5 waterers in small fenced paddocs on 4ac. Should I run a long main pipe from the barn, as a feeder then stub off that pipe for each individual waterer?
4. I have options for where to bring the water into my property. My installer likes to take it down a known fence line to insure ease of finding it/avoiding it in the future. ie 20' of the fence or property line. This would require a longer distance install as well as running water lines to waterers a greater distance.

 

[RNeumann]

You don’t mention pressure from the city or your GPM flow. With a run that long something called “friction loss” will come into play. Google that and figure your pipe type and play with the calculations. I would say the same with an off the cuff suggestion of 1 1/2” pipe- at least to the barn/big water use. I’d stub up every 300’ or so with at least a hose bib. This will give you some tees for any future needs.

Any non “domestic” use for water would technically need an anti siphon device to prevent contamination into your domestic/drinking water.

With those runs I’d use poly pipe and I’d run a tracer wire. Unless you are in a no frost area and are only going down 1 foot. If that’s the case I’d go with SCH40 PVC. The 1 1/2” mechanical Poly fittings will eat up cost. I’d rent and use a socket fuser. Those fittings are only a few bucks. Fighting 1400’ of 1 1/2” will be a multi person task. If you can rig up something that can take a spool you may help yourself out.

 

[mike48130]

Like RNeumann said, it comes down to pressures and how much pressure loss you can accept and what flow you need. I would run black poly line that is rated for potable, the brass barb fittings are cheap. If you go with the blue water supply line, the pipe isn't that bad, but the connectors are very expensive. I don't see a need for it in your application. I would put hydrants in at each location, they are frost proof and can shut off easily, then use hoses from there. They make them in different heights based on your frost depth.

I would run the 1-1/2" min pipe or even 2" depending on what you will need to do with water in the barn and then the workshop. If all these taps are random usage and low volume, you can get away with 1", but you won't get much pressure and flow at the end of the run at the workshop. I would do 2" to the barn and feeds after, then step down to 1-1/2" or 1" to workshop.

Hydrant, 6 ft. at Tractor Supply Co.

 

[TnAndy]

I've got thousands of feet of 1" run all over the place here.....some from my spring, some from a well. We get plenty of water, and the well we use for garden irrigation. Unless you plan on some of those waterers running wide open, you won't have a problem. Sure, bigger is always better, but 1" will do you fine.

One thing I'd advise.....take LOTS of photos and measurements from fixed points as you put in your lines. We have an actual book of photos and maps of the various lines (water and electric) I've run over the years. You'd be amazed how your memory of what you thought you did, and what you actually did, will vary 10-20yrs down the road !

One of my junction areas.....brick box built on top of it now.

 

[the old grind]

Fully agree with TnAndy that 1" pipe size will handle planned flow requirements very well. (We're not walking our horses through 'touchless car wash'.) Thickest I've trenched-in for Morgan farm's longest runs to hydrants was 1 1/4" black poly. Backfill (their part) and connections weren't the best. Had to re-dig twice for (their) repairs, and re-dig once to T-in for a new hay barn.

I'd have used 1" PVC to hydrants like Andy did. :thumbsup: Also his other suggestions if you're not burying 'finder wire' for later service access. Map your junctions and/or drive steel stakes to locate 'em with metal detector if trouble happens.

 

[Dadnatron]

Concerning pipe type...

Long black poly run vs PVC vs PEX?

I think my old school water guy likes PVC, because he's always done it that way. But I'd rather have 2 joints than 20. I like the idea of Uponor Pex direct burial because it has a little compliance (apparently) and fewer issues with freeze breakage, should it be an issue. (At least this is what I was thinking of running to my waterers.

But I need to know what I should ask the main water line from road to barn, to be made from.

 

[mike48130]

I would use the black poly, it's cheaper. What people don't realize with PEX, it is thick wall pipe but measured from the outside diameter. Take a 1/2" piece of PEX and CU and look at them together next time you are at he store. The PEX inside diameter is a lot smaller.

What are the plans for the water at the new shop? Do you know the city water pressure where you are at?

 

[the old grind]

Concerning pipe type... Long black poly run vs PVC vs PEX?

.. I like the idea of Uponor Pex direct burial because it has a little compliance (apparently) and fewer issues with freeze breakage, should it be an issue.

IMO, PEX if you can for all. Black poly is horrible with wall thickness inconsistency, what you may find when heating it to conform to barbs under clamps. It's the only kind I've had to re-dig, say for next door horse farm's hydrants. Apologize for complaints, but too much futzin' with the stuff in crawl spaces, well pits/houses, etc. I have little faith in any makers QC stds.

We tie into residential service that's brought in in copper. I suspect your code authority might allow but two choices, if any. I'd ask them right away.

 

[Birdhunter1]

IN 2010 I ran 1900' of water line to my house. The meter is on a 1" tap, I ran 1 1/2" pipe from that all the way to where it tees to go to my house then 1" runs maybe 700' to my house. From that tee it continues about 150' to my shop where it reduces to 1" at the building. Just before entering the shop I teed off of it in 2017 to run a 3/4" pex line to the horse barn I built. I'd like to say my pressure at the meter was 60 psi but I could be wrong, I do know that in 9 years of living here my wife has never once complained about the water pressure or water flow and we've never had to ration what we are using. I know there has been situations when the washing machine and dishwasher were both running and someone was in the shower and never a complaint.

A plumber I used to work with told me when I did it to go with the 1" tap (our water district offers a 3/4" or 1") and use the 1 1/2" pipe to hold volume for the length of run.

 

[Gary Fowler]

IN 2010 I ran 1900' of water line to my house. The meter is on a 1" tap, I ran 1 1/2" pipe from that all the way to where it tees to go to my house then 1" runs maybe 700' to my house. From that tee it continues about 150' to my shop where it reduces to 1" at the building. Just before entering the shop I teed off of it in 2017 to run a 3/4" pex line to the horse barn I built. I'd like to say my pressure at the meter was 60 psi but I could be wrong, I do know that in 9 years of living here my wife has never once complained about the water pressure or water flow and we've never had to ration what we are using. I know there has been situations when the washing machine and dishwasher were both running and someone was in the shower and never a complaint.

A plumber I used to work with told me when I did it to go with the 1" tap (our water district offers a 3/4" or 1") and use the 1 1/2" pipe to hold volume for the length of run.

Our pressure usually run around 110-120 PSI at the city supply and I have pressure reducers at the entry point to buildings to reduce it to 45 psi. Your flow will depend mostly on the city line pressures. I haven't found much difference in flow from hydrants that are 10 feet from my meter compared to the one that is 500 feet. I know scientific calculations say friction will reduce the flow, but I see nothing drastic in my flow rates. All my water lines come from the city tap are 3/4" and I have great flow even at the longest run which is only about 500 feet . My freeze proof faucets have city line pressure all the way and all are run with 3/4" PVC glued joints. I put valves in in line Tee points so I could isolate them in case of a leak but so far I haven't had any leaks in 9 years of living here.

Having backgrounded all my info, I see no reason for you to use anything larger than 1" for your run unless the city water pressure if very low, then you might be better off with a 1" city tap and meter, then up it to 1.5" for your line so you can try for more volume. I would verify the city water pressure prior to running a line. I would think anything above 80 PSI, you would be good with a 1" line, anything less up it to 1.5". I dont think anything larger than 1.5" will give you any more volume due to line friction loss.
I have never been a fan of black poly piping, leaks are prevalent in such material.

Properly glued PVC joints will not leak and are chemically bonded to the pipe so they are really stronger than the pipe. Bury depth must be below the freeze line. PVC will not stand frozen water and will burst easily when exposed.