Pulling the Pants down on the CK25

[shoppintractors]

<font color="blue"> And as for the 52" first choice tiller being side shift, I've never seen one of those, never found one in a web search either, I suspect it is not a side shift, especially since the origninal poster didn't comment (but maybe it is a side shift, I'll admit when I am wrong, and have in the past and will be in the future). </font>

In another thread the gentleman stated it was a side shift tiller. He also has it in his profile it is a side shift tiller. CCI has these side shift style tillers listed on their website.

<font color="blue">have they sent you a free hat yet? </font>
Nope. Nada. Nothing.

<font color="blue"> and dislike one model for many LEGITIMATE reasons?</font>

In your mind Bob. I think we should stop discussing it until you get your butt in the seat of these tractors. Then we can discuss it more knowledgeably. Until then, the more you try to defend your position the more you damage your credilbility.

Getut, I apologize for dragging you into this.

Don

 

[getut]

NP Don. I enjoy a good debate.

You are right about Tim the Toolman Taylor though... I would be perfectly happy seeing a CUT get light on one side when throttling up.

Too much power only ever hurt a few people.

Getut

 

[Bob_Skurka]

<font color="red"> In your mind Bob. I think we should stop discussing it until you get your butt in the seat of these tractors. Then we can discuss it knowledgeably. Until then the more you try to defend your position the more you damage your credilbility.
</font>

Fair enough Don. I guess that I can't discuss the manuverability of a machine 10'+ long machine in tight places like the woods as it compares to a machine that is over 10" narrower and nearly 1.4' shorter (both as measured without FELs) unless I sit on both of them because that would damage my credibility???

Get real Don.

As far as yoyos(?) side shift tiller on his CK25, I do stand corrected on that.

However, the tiller, which is properly sized for the pto hp based on many tiller manufacturer's recommendations still does not cover the width of his rear tracks. Personally, I prefer a tractor that has AMPLE power to run an implement that is at least as wide as the rear track, and run it will full power and not bog it down regardless of the soil conditions it is used in. But that is just my opinion. But I would also make that same comment about ANY brand of tractor with that PTO hp.

And the 19.5 / 20 PTO hp offered by the CK25 is just perfect for running a 48" rotary cutter, another implement that is narrower than the rear track of the machine. I suppose, someone could run a light duty 60" rotary cutter in light/moderate conditions but certainly would be pushing the engine with a heavy duty cutter under heavy load. And that SHOULD be said about ANY brand of tractor with about 20 PTO hp. We can all put big implements on our tractors but it does not mean that the available PTO hp is optimized for those big implements. Personally, I think a 48" bush hog is better suited to be pulled by a 19pto hp small frame machine than a 20pto hp larger machine that can't mow up to the edge of the fence line because the track is wider than the implement.

Either size machine (19pto hp small frame/20 pto mid frame) will easily power a 60" rear mount snow blower, but one machine will turn a lot tighter when clearing out the parking area or negotiate clearing the walkways so the smaller, nearly equal power machine will accomplish the job faster.

I want a tractor that will easily power H.D. implements that are large enough to cover the width of the tractor, without bogging down the engine when I hit the heavy stuff. I think it is reasonable, without hurting my credibility, to discuss these and many other issues, despite the fact that I have not used a CK25. I think it is reasonable to say that Kioti missed the mark with the CK25 and there would have been a nice market for a 25hp engine built onto a CK20 frame.

 

[shoppintractors]

The CK25 has it's place. The CK30 has it's place. You feel the CK25 does not fit YOUR needs......and that's OK. Other people feel it DOES fit their needs. I think we need to respect their purchasing decision.

<font color="blue"> However, the tiller, which is properly sized for the pto hp based on many tiller manufacturer's recommendations still does not cover the width of his rear tracks. </font>

However, However, However. The purchaser of the tiller seems well satisfied with his decision. It covers the tracks in his situation. So what is more important than that????

You can theorize all you want. HOWEVER, I will always defer to actual owner experience. I was not part of the engineering and design team for the CK25 so, until I listen and hear more about the CK25......I will not buy into your naysayer pre-determined judgement.

<font color="blue">I think it is reasonable to say that Kioti missed the mark with the CK25</font>

I think getut said it best....... <font color="blue"> "No to handle the CK25 specifically.
I also feel this is a solid tractor and that it has its place". </font>Amen.

Don

 

[Bob_Skurka]

<font color="green"> You can theorize all you want </font>

Thanks, but I don't need your permission. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif But I do respect other people's opinons and those who do own the CK25, it does not mean that the tractor will turn on a dime, nor does it mean it has enough PTO hp to handle implements large enough to cover its rear track based on implement manufacturer's recommendations. Call it theory, call it prudent, call it whatever you want.

<font color="red"> The purchaser of the tiller seems well satisfied with his decision. </font>

A lot of people have posted about how they use the wrong size tillers with their tractors and they all seem satisfied too. Doesn't make it the right tool for the job. Just means they figure out how to settle.

And just to put GETUT's words into the proper perspective, here is what he actually had to say in its complete form (no editorial from me): <font color="purple"> No to handle the CK25 specifically. I also feel this is a solid tractor and that it has its place. But in the same token, I feel this is the weakest (no pun intended) tractor in the CK lineup. How could I NOT feel that the CK25 is underpowered when I even feel that the CK30 is slightly underpowered? </font>

Did you notice that weakest link part? That is essentially the same thing I have been saying too. And I agree, it does have its place, but as the weakest link I think its place is right along side the Edsel.

 

[shoppintractors]

Getut also admits he is a self proclaimed power junkie. (sorry to drag you in again.)

Ok, Bob your right, you endlessly try to prove yourself right.

I just don't agree with YOU! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Don

PS: Go outside the box, get some seat time in on a CK25 then we can talk. Until then "Happy Trails" to you.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

I think Bobs point is that the CK25 exists to fill a gap in the Kioti product line and not because Kioti engineered that tractor to work as effectivly as possible. Its defentialy an after thought and I am sure he is right.... otherwise they would jump from 20 to 30 HP and leave the middle wide open. An easy way to fill that gap is to just drop a different engine in the CK30 and boom... new product. Every company is building multiple models on the same frames. I think its pretty stupid as your best performing and best value machine seems to always be the largest of the options. Kioti followed suit and the result is the seemingly anemic CK25.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

BTW... before the traditional "Your a dealer so be quiet" comments popup I woud venture to say the same situation existed with the New Holland TC18 which was just ax'ed this year.

 

[DAP]

As the originator of this thread, I will take a moment and ask all interested parties to go back and read the first post - by me - after having spend about 30 minutes testing each of the new CK class machines (20/25/30).

If my opinion and experience with the machines count for anything - it IS CLEAR TO ME as well as the dealer I was at, that the CK25 was an economical way for Kioti to fill in the product line gap between the CK20 and the CK30, with the hopes that consumers who wanted something a lil more than the CK20 and needed to avoid the sticker price of a CK30 might find satisfaction (with the CK25).

Will the CK25 out perform the CK20? Easily. Will it out maneuver the CK20. Never. If the latter is key, the CK20 should suffice.

While I understand perfectly the design and marketing motivations for Kioti's notion for the CK25, I'm not a fan of this type of product line implementation. I'd MUCH rather see an intermediate frame size to go with the 25HP power plant.

It would be fascinating to know if Kioti actually did any feasibility and marketing studies regarding Return On Investment with the approach they took. In other words, what degree of confidence, IF ANY, did Kioti have that a NEW CK25 with an intermediate sized and unique frame would NOT SELL enough to justify the startup costs of production for it. Did they even examine this? Or did they just say "Hey, I've got a spec for a 25hp diesel, and we could just slap it on the CK30 frame, reprice the unit and fill in the casm, round out the CK line."

So, for those who probably would like something larger than a CK20 frame and don't wanna spend 1500 more for the CK30, the CK25 will find a home. Don't know how many homes, but time will tell.

Oh, and regarding PTO, remember, for whatever its worth, that the CK25 and CK30 both have dual speed PTOs (540 and 1000 rpms) - standard equipment.

Please re-read thread ONE.

/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[getut]

I think the concept of re-using components or assemblies is sound... I just think they chose the wrong frame for the CK25. I think the CK25 should share the frame with the CK20 instead of the CK30.

What little bit of indecision I had when trying to decide on the CK20 would have never been an issue if the CK25 existed in that form.

Getut

 

[sodamo]

WOW, after all this debate, I sure hope I don't have to revisit my decision on the CK30 /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I had already decided the CK20 was probably less than I think I needed for my situation.
I'd be really hesitant to decide on the CK25 and then post that decision here and have to defend it. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Whichever tractor I end up with will be my very first, so I have nothing worthwhile to compare it with. Unless I hit the lottery, it will also be my last tractor, so I'd better be happy with it.
I never would have thought a year ago, this would have been such a mind boggling decision.
Thankfully, as I read, I learn, so I thank you all /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[To20Chris]

And I understand the logic of the CK25 perfectly. I would have been quite interested in a bigger tractor, not necessarily a more powerful one, but cost is an important issue. A CK25 would have enabled me to get a larger frame, and not pony up all the way to a CK30.

If they had developed an intermediate frame size, then that would have cost more R&D money, and they'd need to recoup that. So a CK25 would have to cost more. Beyond that, you never know if development resources are limited (but they usually are), so it may have taken longer to get to market. Piggy-backing the CK25 on the CK30 development program allows them to get a broader offering without a big additional investment. If your running an FEL, BH, and BB, it's all the power you need.

All in all, I still think I'd buy an LK3054XS! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[KiotiJohn]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( John, the reality is that I offered an opposing opinion to yours on one machine, while complimenting several other Kioti models on a consistent basis, and you can't seem to tolerate any opinion about any Kioti that is not 110% complimentary of the brand. )</font>No Bob, what I can't stand is the way you continue to voice your opinion, which is a vile one, when you have NEVER even used a CK25. You base most of your posts, other than ones dealing with your own equipment, on specs alone. Specs just don't tell the story as you think they do, but that doesn't stop you, and then you have to flat out attack me when I try to point out that you haven't any experience with it.
As a self professed city fellow gone country, I question the amount of experience you have had in general.
You come to the Kioti forum and post as though you know everything there is to know about the brand, when you've only "seen" them according to your own posts.
I don't go to any other brand forums to post negatives about the other brands, and I resent that you do. The general buying/pricing forum is where those comments MAY belong.
Just because you occasionally say good things about Kioti in general, and always use that to justify your negative remarks, doesn't change the fact that your opinion is YOUR opinion, and when an owner tell of happiness with a product, you have to come back and tell them why they shouldn't be so happy as is the case with the tiller. What business is it of yours to run down someone else's decision? They didn't ask your opinion before they bought, and don't need your negativity after the fact either.
Yes, I cheer for Kioti, and ALWAYS state whether I have used the model or not, and I've used most of them at least a little. I think I'm far more qualified to speak on a model that I've used than you are since you haven't used any of them.
DAP is probably right about the decision to make the CK25 as an economical way to fill a gap, and who knows why they did. The fact remains that it is still a good viable choice for many.
That is doesn't meet your demands is a moot point since you have your tractors and have experience with them. They are probably the ones you should comment on, not ANY you haven't tried out. But I know you'll continue to spout specs. So be it. John
EDIT: Oh, and GETUT, I didn't bring you into this, Bob did. He stated that I attacked you, but you'll notice who I responded to. Okay? John

 

[getut]

No problem John... I wasn't angry at any point. Its hard to be angry in a subjective thread like this.

I love my CK20 but it isn't perfect. I wish that it had just a little more a$$ as we call it around here. I don't like being limited by the pulling power. At this point in time it is either an HST or HP limitation in this product lineup although I mostly think it is a combination of the two in my case.

I still think it is the best all around decision I have ever made. But my PERSONAL opinion of a tractor is that it should have gobs of torque. In my opinion a tractor should run out of traction in nearly every circumstance before it runs out of anything else.

There are a few tractors out there that meet that spec for me... some of the B series from Kubota are much lighter machines but have equal or larger engines than the Kioti. Generally they are much more expensive tractors and have other limitations that turned me off instantly. In fact the only thing that I DID like about the B series was the power to weight and torque to weight ratio which is more in accord with what I think a tractor should be. I stay away from name brand stuff because around here there is a snobbishness about the big 3. I refuse to pay big bucks for a name.

I found everything OTHER than power to weight and torque to weight to lean in Kioti's favor. Price, fit and finish, dealer support all lean toward Kioti for me.

If my CK20 had the same power to weight ratio as the B7800 (closest spec weight wise) then it would have a 33.4 HP engine. Now that would tickle my fancy. <DROOOOOOL>

Getut

 

[DAP]

I think that's a fair statement however, I'm giving Kioti the benefit of the doubt that they put some gray matter into this.

For instance, by putting the 25hp on the 30 frame, they may have been looking for increased revenues from the implements match to the CK25. The CK loader, the Kioti rotary cutter, box blade, you name it, will all generate higher revenues for the CK25 on it's existing frame as opposed to the CK20 frame and it's smaller implements. I'm making the assumption they are at least that smart, but wouldn't be surprised if it had absolutely NOTHING to do with my hypothesis!

It's all rather moot for this year's models are out and being sold.

One LAST FYI - the dealer stated that Kioti has ABSORBED all of the steel price increases for this model year and this model year only.

Bottom line, look for Kioti price increases this winter, especially if they are showing respectable units sold numbers.

I wish they'd also lose that rocker style hydro pedal. It would be ok if my size 10 foot fit on both ends of it and I could actually rock from forward to reverse, but I have to lift and replace to change directions. Trivial admittedly.

Over and out.

 

[KiotiJohn]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I wish they'd also lose that rocker style hydro pedal. It would be ok if my size 10 foot fit on both ends of it and I could actually rock from forward to reverse, but I have to lift and replace to change directions. Trivial admittedly.)</font>
While I did use the two pedal system on other tractors when looking to buy, I never have used one in actual work so I'm not sure how much better they'd be. I have the opposite problem in a way, my foot is short and doesn't cover the whole pedal. I push forward with the front of my foot and reverse with the rear with my foot turned slightly sideways. It's not really a problem, but a two pedal config. may be better. I do remember someone posting that they didn't like their two pedal system because many times they were hitting the wrong one! Oh well, guess it's another of those subjective articles. John

 

[Bob_Skurka]

<font color="green"> No Bob, what I can't stand is the way you continue to voice your opinion, which is a vile one, when you have NEVER even used a CK25. You base most of your posts, other than ones dealing with your own equipment, on specs alone. Specs just don't tell the story as you think they do, but that doesn't stop you, and then you have to flat out attack me when I try to point out that you haven't any experience with it.
As a self professed city fellow gone country, I question the amount of experience you have had in general.
You come to the Kioti forum and post as though you know everything there is to know about the brand, when you've only "seen" them according to your own posts.
I don't go to any other brand forums to post negatives about the other brands, and I resent that you do. </font>

John, I am a self professed city boy moved to the country, bought my land 15 years ago, moved out to it 10 years ago, and I started out with garden tractors, then moved to both antiques and then to CUTs. I've used JD, Kubota, NH, Oliver, White, Ford, Farmall and AC all to one degree or another and in some cases several models of each, and some models I have 4 or 5 years worth of experience. I've also got about a decade of experience on industrial loaders and forklifts, as well as a couple decades expience with diesel power equipment ranging from light to heavy trucks, as well as loaders and tractors. I think I have a reasonable grasp on some things.

I understand that you don't go to other forums and post your opinions. I do, I post in many of the forums. The fact that you resent my posting in other forums (or in this forum) is of no concern to me, but obviously of condern to you. And I post good and bad points. I understand you consider my opinion of the CK25 to be vile. That is your choice. My opinion is subjective, my criticism of that model tractor is objective. I don't need to try it. I also don't need to be poked in the eye with a sharp stick to know that I don't want to try it. The fact is I am actually a booster of the Kioti brand because it is a solid well designed brand, I especially like the CK20 and CK30 and have been very consistent in posts supporting those two units, and I have done so in many forums. It really is only when threads like this get out of control and I am attacked for simply voicing a dissenting view that things get so far out of perspective. But the thing that keeps me going is all the "fan mail" I get by PM that supports my position from posters who don't want to be flamed for simply agreeing with me.

So John, I am sorry that you don't want me in "your" forum, but I am a visitor in many forums and I try to be objective in all of them.

 

[mathey]

ok everyone...group hug time?

 

[Bob_Skurka]

<font color="red"> ok everyone...group hug time?
</font>

Yea, I'm done with this thread, we are not talking about tractors anymore.

 

[Golfgar4]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( But the thing that keeps me going is all the "fan mail" I get by PM that supports my position from posters who don't want to be flamed for simply agreeing with me.
)</font>

Well, I've been watching this "discussion" going on for about 2 weeks now, and I guess I'll finally say something. Anyone is free to flame me if they want! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

First, I want to say how much I respect BOTH Bob and John and their observations/comments/opinions on just about anything they feel the need to speak out on. I would accept either one of their recommendations on tractors/implements, regardless of whether they had actually used a particular kind. Based on what I've read from both of them, they are intelligent and inquistive individuals who obviously enjoy a little parrying back and forth with other people. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

In fact, more than once I started to send a pm to both of you in support of your viewpoints. But then I actually thought that it would be unfair to the other if I did that (even though the other wouldn't know about it). So rather than sending basically the same pm to both of you, I just stayed mute. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Anyway, it's clear that the two of you are not going to agree on the CK25 vs CK30 discussion. That's fine. That's what's so great about TBN. It's an open forum where ideas can be offered, discussed, and debated in a reasonable atmosphere.

But the thing that really bothers me is that this "debate" has started to deteriorate to include personal attacks. Quite honestly, I believe that both of you guys are above that. Now it certainly has not deteriorated to something really nasty like we've seen sometimes in the past. And I don't really believe that either of you would allow that to happen, because you're both class acts. But it does seem like it has started to head that way.

I believe that if you two guys were able to meet over your favorite beverage (you each get your own so there's no disagreement! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif), and had a friendly talk, you'd end up being fast friends with more respect for each other's opinions.

Let's just finish this one off so that everyone can move forward and benefit from both of your insights about anything else . /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif