PTO GENERATORS

   / PTO GENERATORS #1  

BuilderML

Gold Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
484
Location
Tolland, CT
Tractor
CCY SX3100
I have a question about pto run generators. I understand they are made to run at the 540 that the rear pto produces, which on my tractor would be about 2500 rpm.
Lets use a 15kw generator for example. Running the tractor at 2500 rpm the pto at 540 produces 15kw so if i lower the rpm on the tractor i guess it would lower the speed of the pto accordingly correct producing less KW power? I have not contacted a generator supplier yet i figured i would ask you guys. Here is my thinking i don't need 15kw so is it safe to run the tractor at a lower rpm without damaging the generator or must they run at the 540? Thanks for the info yet again
 
   / PTO GENERATORS #2  
It MUST run at 540 RPM to achieve the 60 hertz frequency. Ruining slower can damage whatever is connected to it.
 
   / PTO GENERATORS #4  
Or, if you have tractor power to spare, usually the PTO has a high speed gearing, too, and by watching the hertz on a meter, you could actually run the tractor engine at a lower speed and still get 540 or whatever you needed at the PTO.
 
   / PTO GENERATORS #5  
If your tractor has a 1,000 rpm pto you could buy a pto generator with the gearing for that speed. I think however you would find that the engine would be running at about the same rpm as you have indicated you need for the 540 pto as the tractor manufacturer needs to have a lot of power available to handle attachments. If you had a 70 hp tractor and only needed 15 kw it would be possible to make a chain drive to get the required rpm for the pto generator while running the tractor engine at lower rpm.

Dave M70400
 
   / PTO GENERATORS #6  
My Winpower will drop out below a fixed rpm (probably a centrifugal contactor). My guess its about 500 pto rpm. Running low frequency would work for a certain type of load (electric heat, laptop or phone DC power supply, for example). AC motors would overheat.
 
   / PTO GENERATORS #7  
Running the tractor at 2500 rpm the pto at 540 produces 15kw so if i lower the rpm on the tractor i guess it would lower the speed of the pto accordingly correct producing less KW power?
You have a couple of misunderstandings above.

The alternator head on the PTO generator will produce the correct voltage and frequency ONLY when it is turned at it's specified RPM. For a 2 pole alternator head, that required rotational rate is 3600 RPM, and for a 4 pole alternator head, that rate is 1800 RPM.

As you have noticed, neither of these values is the same as your tractor's nominal PTO RPM, 540. Ergo, between your tractor PTO and the alternator head will be a small gearbox -- to "upconvert" the 540 RPM output from your tractor PTO to the 1800 or 3600 RPM input needed at the alternator head.

Let's assume for the moment that you have a 2 pole split-phase (120Vac/240Vac) 60Hz alternator head which requires 3600 RPM; and the gearbox mounted on the face of the alternator head has a 1:6.66 gearing -- each input rotation from the tractor PTO results in 6.66 output rotations to the alternator head.

A reduction in PTO speed from 540 RPM to 486 RPM (-10%) results in a reduction of alternator RPM from 3600 to 3240 RPM (-10%). This will reduce the voltage by 10% (from 120Vac to 108Vac) and the frequency by 10% (from 60Hz to 54Hz) . Neither of these is a desirable situation from the viewpoint of the loads plugged in (such as a refrigerator). An internal voltage regulator on the alternator head will attempt, by increasing the field voltage, to counter the voltage sag from the lower RPM, but a) this is usually bounded by about 5% "improvement", and b) this will not and can not fix the frequency offset.

As you can see, you MUST turn a direct-coupled alternator head at it's specified design RPM -- there is no other option. (Inverter generators are another story). So, a PTO generator requiring 540 RPM input must be spun at 540 RPM (+/- a little bit).

All that said, all we have discussed above is regarding voltage and frequency -- and nothing about power. The output power (in W or KW) of the PTO generator is a function of the input power (PTO HP) and the applied load. As you have seen above, the voltage and frequency of the PTO generator must be maintained for compatibility with the load (e.g., a well pump) but the actual power delivered is according to how much load is attached to the generator. Hence, a 15KW PTO-driven generator makes no power if nothing is connected to it -- although it is making 120Vac/240Vac at 60Hz, there is no net current flow and therefore no net power output.

As others have pointed out above, it is sometimes practical to engage the PTO using the 1000 RPM setting and (nearly) halve the engine RPM to again achieve 540 PTO RPM. However, note that the designer of the tractor set up the internal PTO gearing to achieve 540 RPM just *past* the torque peak of the engine (that is, on the high side of the curve). This means that as the load increases and the engine speed sags slightly against the governor, torque will go UP marginally -- helping the engine recover from the applied load (such as starting a large motor). If the engine is running at half speed with the PTO selector set up for 1000 RPM, torque will go DOWN with applied load and engine speed control will be worse. With enough horsepower available at the engine output shaft, this may not be a problem. You will have to experimentally find out what "enough" means, however.

Wrooster
 
   / PTO GENERATORS #9  
It's nice to read a reply that you don't have to wonder if they (really) know what they are talking about.
I have no question about wrooster's electrical knowledge at all!:thumbsup:
 
   / PTO GENERATORS #10  
As others have said you need to maintain 540 rpm to produce 60 hz.
But your other question had to do with power output. The engine will only produce enough power/ consume fuel to match the electrical load of the generator (and all other losses). So you will only use the the amount of fuel that corresponds to the hp produced not possible.
For example if to get 540 pto requires 2200 rpm and the corresponding brake specific fuel consumption is 0.36 lb s/(hp hr) you need about 10 hp to generate some where between 5 and 6kw depending on generator efficiency

10 hp over one hour will use 3.6 lbs of diesel or about 0.5 gallons / per hour.

For 15kw you need about 30 HP which would use about 10.8 lbs or 1.5 gallons per hour

Diesel weighs about 7.15 lbs per gallon

Dave
 
 
 
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