PTO Blown on B20

[Denwa]

Hello Kubotites. I'm new to the list, new to tractors but not new to trouble, and I've already got some with my "new" B20.
Bought myself a '91 B20 with 780hrs, FEL, backhoe and brush mower. Not being the brightest tractor bulb, I ended
up buying a tractor which, according to the previous owner "made some strange noises after I hit a rock while brush
mowing". I got the info turned around in my mind and thought it was the mower that had made the noises, not the tractor.
Anyhow, the B20's mine now, including the damaged PTO.

The PTO shift engages smoothly, but when it turns it indeed makes ominous growling noises. I went to the dealer
and chatted up the service manager. He said to apply some pressure to the end of the PTO while it was engaged and listen.
He said if the sound went away with that end thrust, that the problem was likely a bad bearing which was a relatively easy fix.
About $3-5 hunner plus parts if they did it. He said, as he stepped back a little, gritted his teeth and tilted his head a bit, if the
sound didn't go away or if the sound was not from the back end it would likely be major surgery. I was to chicken to inquire as to
what major surgery might run.

A chunk of 4x8 and a board as a lever provided good end thrust. When I pressed hard, the sound did go away. Yeah!
However, my observant neighbor pointed out that though the sound had stopped, it was likely because the PTO had also
stopped. Boo.....!

Would seem that gear have gone bye-bye, with just enough of something left to make the PTO turn when there is no load.
Oh boy, here we go.... I've got a service manual on order, a set of filters and oils, wrenches, and some local folks I can call on
that know a lot more about tractors that I. Hopefully I can do most or all of this myself.

Not sure how long ago the damage occurred, and the prior owner is out of town for another week or so. I've run the tractor
for a few hours since getting it, and all works well except for the PTO, so, for most of what I would do with the B20, the PTO is
not a big issue in itself, though I would like to park out my woods a bit and obviously would like the unit fully functional.

What I would be grateful for from you guys (and gals?), are some pearls of wisdom as to what to expect, do's and don'ts,
prior experiences with same or similar problem, any other diagnostics, you know..., stuff that will head me in the right
direction and redirect my depression from having a seemingly serious problem right out of the old proverbial box.

Regards,
Dennis

 

[powerstroke444e]

Sounds frustrating but I would say that its worth fixing. If you don't know your way around fixing stuff I would let someone else. The biggest thing is keep it clean and use good sealant when you put it back together. You may be able to fix from the back of the tractor or may have to split? just depends where it broke. Good luck.

 

[montelatici]

Is your hitch lifting with a load on it?

 

[Denwa]

Is your hitch lifting with a load on it?

Monte,
Yes, the hitch works as advertised. No apparent problems or suspicious noises of an sort except the growly PTO that does not turn under load when engaged.
Busted gears U think?

Also, if you know, is there a pan area under the internal PTO parts that would
catch said possible gear chunks? Where would the pieces end up if there were
peeled gear chunks in the tranny area???

Thanks,
Dennis

 

[Denwa]

Well, today I drained the hydro oil and did some "gold panning" in oil pan for gear bits. I only saw a few silvery flakes and perhaps one slight chip of metal. This could be good or this could spell disaster, I know not. What ya' think?

According to the parts diagram, if what I think I see is the way it is, there's a coupler between the PTO input spline (7th shaft rear) and the tranny output spline (7th shaft). I *hope* to find that split in half or something when I finally pull the PTO unit out of the back end of the tractor. I'm probably dreaming, but one can hope it could be this simple.

There should be a weak and easily replaceable link in a system such as this to help prevent major damage and more expensive repairs. Likely dreaming here as well ;' >

I will dissect the filters when they drain out to see what might be trapped within. IF there were larger chunks of gear, I suppose they would just be laying about on the bottom of the tranny case, or ???

After pulling the six 14mm bolts that hold the PTO unit in place I found that
some secret technique or brute force will likely be needed to actually "draw out" the PTO guts and rear cover. The cover seems to be glued in place w/ gasket cement or some such. I tried moderately whacking at the cover plate and the PTO shaft with a rubber mallet, and gently inserting a pry tool into a gap, but neither produced any result and I dare not apply more force until I know what's up here. Should I use heat? Pry tool driven into the gap by hammer blows? I'll call the dealer on this, but if any of y'all can clue me in on what to do it would be great.

The adventure continues,
Dennis

 

[MarkV]

Dennis, sorry to hear about the problems. Do a search on the forum for "Kubota B21 TLB complete driveline rebuild". Member dfkrug, Dave, did a complete tear down on a 98 B21 with good photo's the the internals. It might give you some ideas. You can also send Dave a personal message in case he misses you post. I don't think there is much inside of those tractors he hasn't seen.

MarkV

 

[Denwa]

Dennis, sorry to hear about the problems. Do a search on the forum for "Kubota B21 TLB complete driveline rebuild". Member dfkrug, ......

MarkV

Mark,
Thanks for that. Took a look at the thread and there's a lot to learn there.
I'll study it all. Hopefully need just a little.

Regards,
Dennis

 

[Denwa]

Filter Reading~
Couple of evenings ago I took the drained hydraulic filters, dissected them and
read the tea leaves.

I cut the tops off of both hydraulic filters by clamping the hard end in a vice and cutting around, just below the metal top with a cold chisel. Pulled the guts out, cut the filter paper loose from both ends of the holder with an old bread knife, stretched them out on a piece of newspaper and took a look.

All I saw was a sparse assortment of tiny shiney flakes, no chunks or slivers of any sort. I'm thinking this is likely a good sign, perhaps not. What I saw *looked* to me to be kind of normal wear and tear stuff.


This weekend or tomorrow if I find the time I'll try to get the back plate holding the PTO guts out off the tractor. It's well glued in place and highly resistant to being moved.


Dennis

 

[radioman]

take a look at iplayfarmer thread on his massey rebuild. He bought it used with damaged pto too. He never took a tractor that large apart and it took pictures while he did his rebuild. In the end, he did a mighty fine job. You could learn a thing or two from him.

 

[Denwa]

take a look at iplayfarmer thread on his massey rebuild. He bought it used with damaged pto too. He never took a tractor that large apart and it took pictures while he did his rebuild. In the end, he did a mighty fine job. You could learn a thing or two from him.

Radioman de NX7D,
Say, tried to find the referred to post by iplayfarmer, but no joy. Can you get me a little closer?

73's
Dennis

 

[Denwa]

FINALLY got a straight, as in concise, answer from Nigel, a CA dealer as to how *exactly* to get the PTO guts pulled out of the PTO "chamber" in the back of the tractor.

The repair manual is not much help, and local dealer is suggesting i just pond, wiggle and pry, etc., which is true, but how much where and in what direction is kind of necessary to know if one does not want to risk doing further damage.

So, tomorrow, first day of spring, I will spring into action and get that puppy yanked. Will take some photos and try to post them.

Progress....
Dennis

 

[dfkrug]

So, tomorrow, first day of spring, I will spring into action and get that puppy yanked. Will take some photos and try to post them.

Just saw your thread, Dennis.

I have never seen a B20 up close and personal, but I am told that it is
different in many ways from the B21. On my B21, the PTO cover has 6
bolts, and it would pry loose without taking the tractor apart. The
PTO shaft goes thru the main gearbox to a coupler and shifter forward
of the diff gears. If your problem is there, you will have to take the
whole tractor apart. If it is the final bearing in the rear cover, it will
be easy. If it is hard, the bearing is stuck in the cover, or on the shaft,
or the shaft is stuck in the coupler. Kubota's bearings are mostly NOT
interference fits, unlike JD's. That's a good thing.

Looking fwd to some pix.

 

[dfkrug]

Wow, it has been more than 10 years.

Do you still have your B20, Dennis? Did you fix your PTO?

Well now I have a B20 that I am working on, and the first big challenge is getting the hoe off. The levers do nothing to retract the retaining pins, so it looks like I am going to have to figure some way of pounding the pins out.

Have you ever removed your hoe? If so, any suggestions?

 

[Denwa]

Wow, it has been more than 10 years.

Do you still have your B20, Dennis? Did you fix your PTO?
Well now I have a B20 that I am working on, and the first big challenge is getting the hoe off. The levers do nothing to retract the retaining pins, so it looks like I am going to have to figure some way of pounding the pins out.
Have you ever removed your hoe? If so, any suggestions?

df,
Dang, ten years! Time does fly... Still have the B20 and wish I had got it sooner, just like my hydraulic wood splitter.

I DID fix the PTO, surprised myself. A bunch of manuals and consult and a little bit of work from the dealer got me through. Did it without splitting the thing too, just loosened it up a bit.
I took a bunch of pictures and was going to put an article together for TBN, but never got around to it... Procrastination is one of my prime skills.

The gal I bought it from was swinging a 7' brush hog on the back without a sheer pin, and hit a rock. There was further damage to the differential lock because her kids were likely trying to pull wheelies with the thing, or some such. Oh, and I found that one of the stripped out gears was actually installed backwards, so that it only half way engaged with the other gear. From asking around and gasket evidence, it seems it may well have come that way from the factory. Go figure...

Been working fine ever since, other than running a stick through the radiator while backing up in a brush pile. Taking the front grill and hood off to get to the radiator is, of course, a lot more complicated than one would think at the outset.

Getting the hoe off of mine was no big deal. Getting it back on more of a pain. Not sure what you are referring to re the "pins", but on mine there are two T handled screw pins that secure the hoe to the back of the unit. If it's been forever, they may be will corroded in place. I would (should) source or fab a tool for applying a lot more than hand power to thoese things, such as a pipe or socket with a notch in one end and a big lever arm at the other. I found that the position of the hoe and resulting tensions played a big part in the ease of taking the pins out or screwing them back in. No pounding should be needed, just a bunch of messing around. Kind of like getting the pin out or back in that locks the hoe in the up/fully retracted position requires some boom manipulation. Watch yer fingers! I tied a lanyard to that thing to keep it at a safe distance from mine. Also a couple of hydraulic hoses you have to unplug and connect to each other.

When you get the thing loosened up it would help a lot if you could park the hoe on a hard flat surface to keep it level for reattachment, and build a cradle or at least block the bottom of the thing up so it stays just where it was positioned when removed. Save a lot of agro later.

Would strongly suggest getting whatever manuals and schematics you can from a dealer or source them on line. Knowing what parts you're dealing with is quite helpful. A tool that I found very helpful in diagnosing things was one of those bore hole inspection camera things. They're a lot less expensive now than they were then. Could look deep into the tranny to see what was where and reassure myself ot things.

Good luck and shout if I can be of further assistance. Keep cool in CA!

Yours in the smoke,
Denwa

 

[dfkrug]

Glad you got the PTO fixed, Dennis.

The B20 backhoe mount is somewhat different from the B21's I had years ago. The top part of the mount has 2 Tee-shaped pins, which are retained by clips. No problem removing them. It is the lower connection that has spring-loaded pins that retract using levers. The pins are stuck. I can see one has already been hammered-on by a prev owner. I tried hammering but access from the side, even with tires off is not good.

Next step will be getting the tractor over my mechanic's bay and getting underneath.

 

[Denwa]

Glad you got the PTO fixed, Dennis.

..... It is the lower connection that has spring-loaded pins that retract using levers. The pins are stuck. .....

Ahh, forgot those lower devils. It could be worth the effort to have someone you trust wiggle the hoe around while you attempt to move the pins. A few or several hundred pounds of latteral pressure can go a long way to promoting stiction.