PT and cold climate
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MossRoad
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- Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year
Any hydraulically powered machine will feel the affects of cold weather. My 2001 model PT425 with the Kohler engine has started down to -20F. It required a shot of starting fluid and a battery booster. I've heard from owners with Robin engine powered PT400 series machines not having as much success as the Kohler powered machines.
One of the main issues I see with my PT425 and cold weather starting is that the engine is directly coupled to all 3 hydraulic pumps. There's no clutch between them. That means the starter needs to crank not only the engine, but all 3 pumps, and all that thick, cold, hydraulic fluid to get the machine started.
Several owners have installed permanent or temporary electric heaters on the hydraulic tanks and pumps. Some cover the machine with a blanket and heat it up for a couple hours before starting.
Hopefully some of them will chime in and give you their experiences.
If you can keep the machine in a garage, out of the wind, it makes it easier to pre-heat it as well.
One of the main issues I see with my PT425 and cold weather starting is that the engine is directly coupled to all 3 hydraulic pumps. There's no clutch between them. That means the starter needs to crank not only the engine, but all 3 pumps, and all that thick, cold, hydraulic fluid to get the machine started.
Several owners have installed permanent or temporary electric heaters on the hydraulic tanks and pumps. Some cover the machine with a blanket and heat it up for a couple hours before starting.
Hopefully some of them will chime in and give you their experiences.
If you can keep the machine in a garage, out of the wind, it makes it easier to pre-heat it as well.
cqaigy2
Super Member
That might depend on which numbers are used in the negative double digits. As Moss said, the kohler starts better in lower temps than the robins, I've had both engines in my PT, but they are both gasoline engines and don't suffer from the same cold weather issues that diesel has. It doesn't get cold where i live so really don't have any experience with my PT in cold weather.
MossRoad
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As cquigy2 mentioned, it really depends how cold it gets where you're going to be operating. When it's very cold here, once I get it started, I let it run at about 1/3 throttle for about 10-15 minutes to get the hydraulics warmed and circulated. I shovel the steps and clean off the truck that's outside, etc... then I clear the snow. I've found that once I get it started and warmed up, if I shut it off, it'll usually start right back up within an hour or so with no assistance. I'd guess that 15 minutes is not going to let the hydraulics cool down enough to be a problem, but, again, it depends just how cold it is. ND gets way colder than northern IN on a regular basis. While we see below zero F for a few days each winter, and as cold as -22 every couple decades, the norm in the coldest of winter is about 10-15F. And that's only for a couple weeks at best.
-10 -15 is a regular occurrence here. Gets to -30 -40 2-3 times during the winter. I think I will have to test it out and see what works for me. If it needs to be left on while being transported, I am ok with that. I have a plow on the pickup truck. How does it not require a warm operation? (Like I said, I outsource the maintenance for mowers, snowblowers, etc).
MossRoad
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Meaning that the plow hydraulics stays cold during plow operation. Or I am clueless, and the truck somehow keeps hydraulic fluid warm.
ponytug
Super Member
Thinning is not recommended for PT hydraulic fluid. Unlike your plow's hydraulics which start cold and stay cold, the hydraulic oil in the Power-Tracs warms up as it circulates, which means that thinned oil would get too thin to lubricate your pumps and wheel motors.
Having an oil heater for the hydraulic fluid will make a big difference to starting. If you still have trouble, you can always add a second heater on the engine oil pan, but the primary issue as MR mentioned is that the starter motor has to turn three pumps with very cold oil in the pumps, as well as the engine.
If your PT doesn't stay warm enough getting from site to site in blizzard conditions, then you could always plug in an oil heater when the PT is on the trailer, but personally, I would see how it goes. The oil tank will act as a heat reserve between jobs, and tossing a mover's blanket over the tank may be enough insulation to keep the PT warm enough to restart easily.
Are you planning on having the PT in a heated garage to start with, or will it be outside?
All the best, Peter
Having an oil heater for the hydraulic fluid will make a big difference to starting. If you still have trouble, you can always add a second heater on the engine oil pan, but the primary issue as MR mentioned is that the starter motor has to turn three pumps with very cold oil in the pumps, as well as the engine.
If your PT doesn't stay warm enough getting from site to site in blizzard conditions, then you could always plug in an oil heater when the PT is on the trailer, but personally, I would see how it goes. The oil tank will act as a heat reserve between jobs, and tossing a mover's blanket over the tank may be enough insulation to keep the PT warm enough to restart easily.
Are you planning on having the PT in a heated garage to start with, or will it be outside?
All the best, Peter
I was planning on keeping it outside, but from experience of other owners, I can store it in garage, which has above freezing temp. I just talked to Terry and he said replacing 10W40 with 10W30 is an option. Will see. have to experiment.
MossRoad
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As ponytug mentions, the hydraulics get hot in a PT. So much so, that the hydraulic cooler fan will come on in sub-freezing temperatures after 20-30 minutes of use at full throttle while plowing snow.
The pumps are always pumping, which moves the fluid, which causes friction, which warms the fluid. For example, you start the engine, the steering/FEL/AuxPTO pump section is spinning at the same RPMs as the engine immediately. It's pushing fluid through the pump, hoses, fittings, steering valve, the power-beyond port on the steering valve, more fittings and hoses, then on to the 3-valve bank with the two valves for the 4 FEL functions, and the one valve for the AuxPTO (the knee height lever that operates the QA or power angle on the snow plow, etc...), more fittings, hoses, and back to the tank. That's a lot of bends and turns and friction for the fluid. It does this wether you're moving, sitting still, operating the FEL or not. The fluid is in constant motion.
Same thing for the main PTO pump section; the fluid is always moving through that pump and back to the tank until you flip the PTO switch on the dash. Then it electrically diverts to the main PTO hoses on the FEL arms, through the implement's motor, and back to the tank.
The variable volume pump's charge pump always pulls some fluid through the filter, through the charge pump, and back to the tank, even if you aren't moving. When you do move, the tram circuit is almost a closed loop, so that fluid doesn't heat up until you start driving around. The charge pump just makes up any leakage in the tram pump, as I understand it.
Anyhow, there you have it. Any time engine is on, the hydraulic fluid is moving and heating up due to friction.
It should hold heat for well over an hour, even in the coldest of temps once you shut it off.
The pumps are always pumping, which moves the fluid, which causes friction, which warms the fluid. For example, you start the engine, the steering/FEL/AuxPTO pump section is spinning at the same RPMs as the engine immediately. It's pushing fluid through the pump, hoses, fittings, steering valve, the power-beyond port on the steering valve, more fittings and hoses, then on to the 3-valve bank with the two valves for the 4 FEL functions, and the one valve for the AuxPTO (the knee height lever that operates the QA or power angle on the snow plow, etc...), more fittings, hoses, and back to the tank. That's a lot of bends and turns and friction for the fluid. It does this wether you're moving, sitting still, operating the FEL or not. The fluid is in constant motion.
Same thing for the main PTO pump section; the fluid is always moving through that pump and back to the tank until you flip the PTO switch on the dash. Then it electrically diverts to the main PTO hoses on the FEL arms, through the implement's motor, and back to the tank.
The variable volume pump's charge pump always pulls some fluid through the filter, through the charge pump, and back to the tank, even if you aren't moving. When you do move, the tram circuit is almost a closed loop, so that fluid doesn't heat up until you start driving around. The charge pump just makes up any leakage in the tram pump, as I understand it.
Anyhow, there you have it. Any time engine is on, the hydraulic fluid is moving and heating up due to friction.
It should hold heat for well over an hour, even in the coldest of temps once you shut it off.
MossRoad
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I wouldn't run it in an attached garage very long due to carbon monoxide. I'm fortunate in that we have detached garages and sheds. But I would start it and let it warm up for 2-3 minutes, then inch it outside to finish warming up. Just don't mash the hydraulics while they're ice cold.
MossRoad
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You have to remember that Terry from PT lives in Tazewell, VA where the average low temp for the coldest day of the year, January 29th, is 25F and the average high is 41F. :laughing: What's freezing cold to them is probably a sweatshirt over t-shirt day to you.
I think the new Kohlers that PT uses are fuel injected, though. You'd have to ask to be sure. And from what I've hear, the fuel injection engines start much easier than the older carbureted engines like mine.
You have to remember that Terry from PT lives in Tazewell, VA where the average low temp for the coldest day of the year, January 29th, is 25F and the average high is 41F. :laughing: What's freezing cold to them is probably a sweatshirt over t-shirt day to you.
I think the new Kohlers that PT uses are fuel injected, though. You'd have to ask to be sure. And from what I've hear, the fuel injection engines start much easier than the older carbureted engines like mine.
I will call him tomorrow and relay your question regarding the engine. Will update here.
SpringHollow
Elite Member
15 minutes trailering would be no problem. It takes a while to cool down the hydraulic tank. I routinely leave it off for an hour in cold temps.
Ken
Ken
ponytug
Super Member
Umm...10W30 and 10W40 have the same cold weather viscosity. If you want to change the oil to something less viscous, it would be 5W30 or 5W40.
Another small tip: it is good to keep the throttle low while warming up, as you want to avoid collapsing the suction filter by trying to move high volumes of oil through the filter while cold.
Every little bit helps in my opinion; oil heater, enclosed garage, warm up are all great strategies. IIRC Wolverine brand were a popular choice.
All the best,
Peter
Another small tip: it is good to keep the throttle low while warming up, as you want to avoid collapsing the suction filter by trying to move high volumes of oil through the filter while cold.
Every little bit helps in my opinion; oil heater, enclosed garage, warm up are all great strategies. IIRC Wolverine brand were a popular choice.
All the best,
Peter
Tazewell confirmed the Kohler is carbureted for what its worth.
Thank you. I will look into oil heater installation once I finally get to buy the tractor. Having some financing issues.
