Property line dispute

[Anonymous Poster]

The best, and hardest thing to do in these situations is back off, and let yourself gain some perspective.
Your highest priority right now isn't the dam driveway, it's your friend and hunting buddy. Both of you are headed for some bad times, and he needs you NOW.
As far as the driveway goes, your property description should clearly indicate distances from survey pin to survey pin. Since you seem to think the other guy may have moved the pins next to the driveway, the easiest way to prove it to yourself is with a tape measure to the other corner pin. Chances are if he did move a pin next to the driveway he didn't think far enough to check your property description and move the far corner pin as well. After checking all measurments, talk to a lawyer.
Always remember when talking to any lawyer, you have to know your case better than he does, and what you want the lawyer to accomplish.
Somebody made a mistake, could have been the surveyor, could have been the realtor, could have been the neighbor, but until you know what is wrong, and what you want to accomplish, you have no idea who to bring action against, or what action to bring.

 

[hayden]

What will determine the outcome here are the REGISTERED and RECORDED deeds and surveys. What's recorded in the official land records is, by definition, what's owned by the two parties.

First, a few questions:

1) Is the survey you posted offcially stamped and recorded as part of your title chain? If so, then it's part of the legal description of your property and has to be overturned rather than defended.

2) Read the titles. Does it call out the survey? They will typically say whether in the event of descrepencies, the writted description or the survey prevails.

3) Your survey shows a ROW easement for the common part of the road. Does your title show that your neighbor has a Right of Way (ROW) to use the common drive, or is it the other way around (where his title grants you the ROW). This all indicates who the titles think owns the property.

Keep in mind that a survey doesn't mean much if it's not recorded as part of the title chain.

Reading back through the titles should make clear who actually owns the property where the road exists.

Things could then get interesting in a few ways.

Perhaps the titles say you own the sliver of property where the road is supposed to reside, but the road actually physically is not on that piece of land. Only a re-survey can do an actual location of the road relative to the bounds of the property.

The other place where it could get interesting is if the titles and recorded surveys actually contradict each other. Anyone doing a good survey will search the titles of the abutting property and ensure their survey is consistent with those titles, or call out differences, but you never know.

Good luck with this.

 

[MikePA]

I agree with Franz, double check the distances on the plan with the distances between the pins in the ground. I'd start with the 475.49' (just us a 500' roll of twine) measurement, then move to the pins near the driveway (in the lower right corner of the plan you posted).

When we surveyed parcels of land that had roads as a boundary, we placed corner stakes on the right of way and, if possible, on the actual property line. If it was a paved road, we pounded large headed nails into the road. If it was a dirt road we couldn't do that. So, be aware that the pins you are finding near the roads on your plan may indicate the right of way line and not your property line.

Again, I have a very hard time seeing how 2 surveys could be wrong.

The surveyors would have started with a deed description which should have read something like, "Starting at a point in the center of an unnamed driveway and continuing...."

It would be great if you could post a copy of the deed description.

 

[gws]

Hmm, one provided by the realtor and home seller. Both who wanted to sell you somthing.
If you payed for a survey during settlement then where is that copy, what does that say?
You need get a new survey and find out what it says.

As for the plats you got there is most likely a note at the bottom that says for reference only not a legal survey. Also check the fine print on the realator paperwork, basic will says anything the realator says is beleived to be true but not a guarantee. What does the lawyer your had at closing say?? YOU DID HAVE A LAWYER DIDNT YOU!

 

[bsparr]

I am a land surveyor in Tx and run into matters such as this often, your neighbor may be correct in assuming the drive to be on his property simply because he paid for it. You have documented proof that the drive is on your property. A few questions come to mind: If you financed the property you probably purchased title insurance, you need to immediately put your insurance carrier on notice of a potential claim, if not you may find that you have voided your coverage. Also, let the title insurance company know that you will be contacting the surveyor next, they may inform you that they will handle it, if not, contact the surveyor that performed the survey for your closing and inform he/she of you neighbors claims, the surveyor should either verify their survey or provide to your satisfaction that they stand behind their survey. If you are not satisfied after talking with your surveyor, you need to inform he/she of your potential claim. Either way, do not pay for another survey at this time. Just as the title insurance provides coverage, the land survey also provides coverage. My next question is why you were able to purchase this property without the issue of a neighbor using your property for access being resolved. The title company or your lender should have advised you of this potential problem. Did you have an attorney represent your interest during this transaction?, if so, you need to notify them of this problem.

Whatever the outcome, you need to keep your head about you, do not loose your temper or make any threats or say anything that may make the situation worse. You did not do anything wrong and relied on serveral different professionals to close the deal. The facts are what they are and the outcome will be determined by the facts. SO put the ball in the hands of the professionals and go jump on the tractor and think about something else for a while.

 

[rdln]

Did you go through a mortgage company or directly to a bank for a loan? I have seen first hand how mortgage companies fudge "bank surveys" to make a property more appealing to a bank to close a deal.

I feel for you and your 10 year old, mine is 6 and I dread the reality that his day is closing in.

 

[CSAW]

Billman

If i'm looking at it correctly tell your neighbor thanks for paying for your driveway. I doubt that your survey is wrong.

This being said I would not cause hard feelings over it. Good neighbors are great to have and bad neighbors are terrible to have. You need to get along. However, you need to know for sure.

What does the previous owner of your place say about it? He has probably heard this before. Is the neighbor trying to stop you from using it? Is he being nasty?

You should find out for sure that it is yours. If he "thinks" it is his and you "know" that it is yours don't worry about it.

Be sure to let us know what happens, alot of things like this we never hear the final outcome.

Good Luck

 

[dmccarty]

BillMan,

First take a deep breath and count to 10. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Take care of the dog. You problem with the driveway ain't going away
soon. [frown.] Take care of your buddy.

One of our dogs has a big tumour and is now in chemo. She has a case
that none of the vets have seen before so they don't have a real clue
as to what will happen. We are doing what we can to help her and so
far she is doing real good. But the prognosis is not good.

Help you buddy out.

TRY to be friendly with the neighbor. I have had similar
problems with one of my neighbors, supposedly a friend, and its
not really fun. Thankfully he sold his house and hopefully is out
of the picture. Somehow at least one survey stake is no missing.
The "friend" may have taken it out but the new owner may have as
well as a different surveyor. Who knows. I'll get it resurveyed
again this summer....

My father in law and a very good friend as a neighbor. The friend
moved the property stakes to gain a bit of land to help him with
his septic field... This was a friend that he had known for decades.

I'm not a lawyer but I have heard of agents having to pay big bucks
to buyers when the house was not as large as they had been told.
I would think that if the driveway was not on your property as YOU
had been told and the survey clearly shows, you would have good
lawsuit. But who wants to go that route?

I would be very curious about his use of the driveway. There should
be an easement written up on this. If its your driveway it sure seems
that HE needs an easement of some kinda. And if its HIS driveway then
it seems that you need the easement. Regardless of ownership who
is responsible for the road upkeep?

I would be very careful in looking at pins in the ground and know what
they mean. My land boundries run almost east/west and north/south.
Its very easy to run a compass heading and not even be close to the
pin. And I'm pretty good with a compass. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif There are pins
in my lines that are from old surveys that are no longer valid. So
you really have to be careful with this stuff.

Others have given you better advice on how to deal with this regarding
the lawyers and title companies. But if a new survey is done be there
and have them mark the lot line with flags. And your neighbor should
be there as well.

I think one of the cons, to steal a word from another thread, about living
in the country are lot line disputes. I know of two disputes between four
different neighbors. They are all my neighbors. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif One seems to be
a friendly dispute but the other was a bit testy.

Another thing you can do that should not cost you a cent is to go to the
courthouse and start pulling deeds and surveys. I have spent time in
my courthouse doing this when we where trying to buy land and it really
easy to do. The employees where very helpful and would gladly answer
questions. But you can get the deeds going back as far as you want.
Sometimes they are a hoot to read as well when the describe the property.

Good Luck and let us know what happens.
Dan McCarty

 

[BILLMAN]

I think, I will contact the title company today and let you guys know how that goes. I did use a title company at settlement. The neighbor is not being nasty at this point. This all started this past February, I was plowing the driveway and putting down calcium chloride. The neighbors wife called my wife and asked "Are you guys putting salt on the driveway?" My wife said well it's actually calcium chloride. The negihbor made some kind of comment about that being bad for asphalt and that was the end of the conversation. (thanks for the tip) My wife and I didn't think much of the comment. This spring the neighbor has been mowing along the driveway. I again didn't see any issue as he uses my driveway to get to his house. (in my mind) Last month , I was dressing up the edges of my driveway with the 'bota. This is when he informed me that this was his driveway and he didn't want me to continue what I was doing. I told him that it was clearly my driveway. (in a calm voice) Now you guys are up to speed. If I hear what you guys are saying I should...

contact the title company
contact the title insurance company
contact an attorney

Another question that comes to mind is I'm probably paying taxes on this improved driveway. By the way, the physical description of the property on the deed does not refer to a driveway. (nor does my neighbors) The relationship with the neighbor is definately stressed at this point. I have not argued or raised my voice in any way. Polite and very open in every interaction with these people. However, they seemed p***ed and they are showing it.

***I ALSO WANT TO APOLOGIZE FOR MY ORIGINAL POST. I NOTICED THAT IT WAS CENSORED. I GUESS THAT I WASN'T THINKING CLEARLY AS THIS IS OBVIOUSLY A PUBLIC FORUM. SORRY ...

 

[dmccarty]

BillMan,

I would contact a REAL ESTATE lawyer before getting to the title
people. The title companies are in this to protect their fannies,
not yours. Find out what YOUR lawyer says to do first. Make sure
that lawyer has a clue in all of this. I have talked to some lawyers
and CPA's and I knew FAR more about the subject than they did.
I went and found people who knew the subject.

TRY, and I know it is hard, to be calm and polite with the neighbors.
Remember they are feeling what you are feeling. They think you
are taking THEIR property just like YOU feel THEY are taking YOURS.
One little word at the wrong time can really blow this up. It seems
like one of you guys is right and the other is wrong! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif Its
really not in anyones best interest to have to go to court. Cause
you pay and he pays. If you can manage, and it will be hard, to
keep it civil, you two might be able to work things out without
getting into court. You can grant him and easement or vice versa.
But if the hair goes up and everyone is ticked at the other you
really have a problem. And its very UGLY living next to someone
you can't stand. Been There and Doing THAT! /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

Later...
Dan