Proper way to move loose materials?

[JDgreen227]

To the smart guys here that are going to tell me to use a tractor and loader, I prefer to do that if possible...

I just used a snow rake to pull about a ton of wet snow off part of my roof, and as I was shoveling it off my decks, I recalled an incident back in 2002. My wife's brother who is a GM engineer and I were spreading several tons of peastone on a basement dirt floor, in preparation for pouring concrete. The pile of peastone was as much as seven feet high, we were loading it into a big wheelbarrow to move the stuff to the far corners of the basement. He insisted the smart way to load the wheelbarrow was to shovel from the BOTTOM of the peastone pile, then lift it to waist level to dump it into the wheelbarrow.

When I insisted it made a lot more sense to shovel it from above waist level and not have to lift it, he replied: "If you shovel it from the bottom the stuff above is going to come down"... like that made any sense at all. To me it was really stupid to exert all that extra effort to lift the peastone from ground level up into the wheelbarrow.

I didn't have my tractor then or I would have showed him the manual for the loader that clearly stated "when moving loose materials from a pile, remove material from the TOP (emphasis added) of the pile first"

We had a really heated argument because I disagreed with his method, but he insisted "I'm an engineer so I know what I am doing"....

Yeah, right...who else here thinks that's the smart way to move loose material?

 

[SandburRanch]

To the smart guys here that are going to tell me to use a tractor and loader, I prefer to do that if possible...

I just used a snow rake to pull about a ton of wet snow off part of my roof, and as I was shoveling it off my decks, I recalled an incident back in 2002. My wife's brother who is a GM engineer and I were spreading several tons of peastone on a basement dirt floor, in preparation for pouring concrete. The pile of peastone was as much as seven feet high, we were loading it into a big wheelbarrow to move the stuff to the far corners of the basement. He insisted the smart way to load the wheelbarrow was to shovel from the BOTTOM of the peastone pile, then lift it to waist level to dump it into the wheelbarrow.

When I insisted it made a lot more sense to shovel it from above waist level and not have to lift it, he replied: "If you shovel it from the bottom the stuff above is going to come down"... like that made any sense at all. To me it was really stupid to exert all that extra effort to lift the peastone from ground level up into the wheelbarrow.

I didn't have my tractor then or I would have showed him the manual for the loader that clearly stated "when moving loose materials from a pile, remove material from the TOP (emphasis added) of the pile first"

We had a really heated argument because I disagreed with his method, but he insisted "I'm an engineer so I know what I am doing"....

Yeah, right...who else here thinks that's the smart way to move loose material?

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You could have recited to him the horse power formula since it deals with distance.:laughing::laughing:

 

[TheGoose]

PHHHHFFFFTTTTTT....an engineer is the last person you should ask on how to work. They may be "book smart" but few have any sense beyond the classroom. I would have told him when he ran my shovel is when he decided how I was going to work.

 

[SARG]

A sad truth from years of working with engineering graduates .... they appear to have to turn in their common sense before being given the degree.

 

[whistlepig]

I knew an engineer that had a Masters degree in mechanical engineering. He was looking at several dozen square blocks we had just drilled and tapped. Quality manager he was. He asked me why we hadn't marked these blocks as "top" or "bottom". I asked him why we should. He said that if these blocks got flipped over and got mixed up we wouldn't know the left hand thread from the right hand thread. There are engineers. And there are engineers with what I call "Shop Sense" The latter are few and far between and worth their weight in gold.

 

[MossRoad]

I didn't have my tractor then or I would have showed him the manual for the loader that clearly stated "when moving loose materials from a pile, remove material from the TOP (emphasis added) of the pile first"

We had a really heated argument because I disagreed with his method, but he insisted "I'm an engineer so I know what I am doing"....

Yeah, right...who else here thinks that's the smart way to move loose material?

Well, the owner's manual for my IH2500b tractor loader tells me to move into the bottom of the pile while curling the bucket so the weight of the material above helps push material down into the bucket. They call it "crowding" the bucket.

I can't see doing that with a hand shovel, and lifting it an extra foot, but on a front end loader it sure speeds things up.

 

[CurlyDave]

Well, the owner's manual for my IH2500b tractor loader tells me to move into the bottom of the pile while curling the bucket so the weight of the material above helps push material down into the bucket. They call it "crowding" the bucket.

I can't see doing that with a hand shovel, and lifting it an extra foot, but on a front end loader it sure speeds things up.

With an FEL, a lot of it depends on the size of the pile, and the nature of the material. A small pile of non-sticky material like gravel is best worked from the bottom, because the pile tends to stay in the same place, and excess gravel easily flows out of the bucket. Start near the top, and the pile will move backward as excess material flows down the back side.

Dirt that sticks together is a little different. Starting well up the side of the pile allows the bucket to lift more easily because there is less overburden, and the pile is not going to move since the material is sticky.

With a large enough pile, you have to take material from higher up, no matter how free-flowing it might be.

With a shovel, I am going to start above the level of the wheelbarrow and only lift stuff when the pile is not high enough...

 

[sodamo]

I confess :ashamed: I've done it both ways. Agree pretty much the way Dave explained it for both FEl & shovel.

One thing I've found is that the heavy,stickier stuff often doesn't load well from the bottom. Sometimes I even use my bucket to break the top of the pile to have looser stuff at bottom to scoop.

 

[Taylortractornut]

When loading with a tlb or other loader to increase efficency after a few scoops from the middle on the bottom we move over to the side. That leaves a narrow pointing pile that will load alot easier. Loading loose stuff with a loader from stock piles its generally take from the lower part of the pile and let gravity load it.

 

[jinman]

When I attack piles of loose dirt, I backdrag off the top and load from the bottom. That way I use the pile as a backstop until it is depleted.

Edit: When it comes to pea gravel, certainly loading a shovel at the same level as the wheelbarrow is a no-brainer.

 

[JDgreen227]

When I attack piles of loose dirt, I backdrag off the top and load from the bottom. That way I use the pile as a backstop until it is depleted.

Edit: When it comes to pea gravel, certainly loading a shovel at the same level as the wheelbarrow is a no-brainer.

Excellent way to to it...I don't move loose material with the FEL often but will keep that tip in mind for when I do. THANKS.

 

[MossRoad]

With an FEL, a lot of it depends on the size of the pile, and the nature of the material. A small pile of non-sticky material like gravel is best worked from the bottom, because the pile tends to stay in the same place, and excess gravel easily flows out of the bucket. Start near the top, and the pile will move backward as excess material flows down the back side.

Dirt that sticks together is a little different. Starting well up the side of the pile allows the bucket to lift more easily because there is less overburden, and the pile is not going to move since the material is sticky.

With a large enough pile, you have to take material from higher up, no matter how free-flowing it might be.

With a shovel, I am going to start above the level of the wheelbarrow and only lift stuff when the pile is not high enough...

I agree completely. It would be hard to do something like a pile of clay that way. But the O.P. specifically asked about loose material.

 

[MossRoad]

When I attack piles of loose dirt, I backdrag off the top and load from the bottom. That way I use the pile as a backstop until it is depleted.

Edit: When it comes to pea gravel, certainly loading a shovel at the same level as the wheelbarrow is a no-brainer.

If its loose material, it will fall down each time you take a bucket load out from the bottom and there is no need to drag back drag it off the top. If it is slightly sticky, do what Taylortractornut suggested and remove the corners. It will fall down if you take out two sides. If it doesn't, it is probably not loose material.

Each time you move the tractor with nothing in the bucket you are adding hours to the meter and using fuel. Each time you roll the tractor back and forth in the same spot, you are compacting the earth underneath as well (may be a good thing, may not, depending on the job).

 

[Casco1]

With an FEL, a lot of it depends on the size of the pile, and the nature of the material. A small pile of non-sticky material like gravel is best worked from the bottom, because the pile tends to stay in the same place, and excess gravel easily flows out of the bucket. Start near the top, and the pile will move backward as excess material flows down the back side.

Dirt that sticks together is a little different. Starting well up the side of the pile allows the bucket to lift more easily because there is less overburden, and the pile is not going to move since the material is sticky.

With a large enough pile, you have to take material from higher up, no matter how free-flowing it might be.

With a shovel, I am going to start above the level of the wheelbarrow and only lift stuff when the pile is not high enough...

I agree with 95% of your statement. Where I disagree is the last point "With a shovel" where is when I invite my kids and grandkids [ read sons-in-law ] over for burgers and beer.

 

[/pine]

on a side note...

I've never had to move pea gravel but I have moved my share of granite crusher run....my experience is that if you do not have some sort of flat plane to slide the shovel (square edged) on it can be very difficult to get any purchase into the pile...

If I know I am going to have to hand shovel something like crusher run... whenever possible I try to use a sacrificial sheet of plywood or use several 2x10's etc...and dump the gravel onto the lumber...then using a square shovel and sliding it along the plywood or boards into the pile base it allows the shovel to penetrate and gravel avalanches down to fill the shovel..

 

[MossRoad]

on a side note...

I've never had to move pea gravel but I have moved my share of granite crusher run....my experience is that if you do not have some sort of flat plane to slide the shovel (square edged) on it can be very difficult to get any purchase into the pile...

Teeth on a bucket help quite a bit for stuff like that. :thumbsup:

 

[jinman]

If its loose material, it will fall down each time you take a bucket load out from the bottom and there is no need to drag back drag it off the top. If it is slightly sticky, do what Taylortractornut suggested and remove the corners. It will fall down if you take out two sides. If it doesn't, it is probably not loose material.

Well, if it is loose pea gravel, it will collapse as you say, but my caliche sand will collapse some, but often will not drop even when it is undercut. I dig with my backhoe and make a pile of about 25 to 30 yards before moving the material with my loader bucket. My bucket holds 1.3 yards and heaped about 1.5 yards. You should never underestimate how much power it takes to shove a 8' wide 1.3 yard bucket into a pile of dirt or loose material. My TLB is 4wd and I easily spin the tires when filling the bucket. However, if I approach the pile with the bucket high until it makes contact, curl down and back to drag loose material downward, and then shuttle back to lower the bucket and forward to load, I can get a full 1.5 yard bucket load every time with minimum effort on the tractor. It's true that I end up with corners on each side of that and I scrape them up when they become large enough to fill my bucket. My point is that the size of bucket, type of materials, and geometry of the area you are working is different for changing materials and conditions. There is just no one good answer.

However, I agree completely that the shoveling pea gravel into a wheelbarrow as the OP stated is obviously the best solution whether the shovel pointed or flat. The great thing about TBN is a poster talks about shoveling into a wheelbarrow, and before the thread is over, we are moving mountains and building Hoover Dam.:laughing: If all those guilty of promoting thread drift raised their hand, mine would certainly be up there.:ashamed:

 

[Egon]

There could be some advantage to hand shoveling from the bottom of the pile!

It requires additional hydration fluid so more trips to the beverage container are required.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

That gives the bottom shoveller the illusion there are no sore muscles being developed and he continues on Bliss and contentment.

 

[MossRoad]

Well, if it is loose pea gravel, it will collapse as you say, but my caliche sand will collapse some, but often will not drop even when it is undercut. I dig with my backhoe and make a pile of about 25 to 30 yards before moving the material with my loader bucket. My bucket holds 1.3 yards and heaped about 1.5 yards. You should never underestimate how much power it takes to shove a 8' wide 1.3 yard bucket into a pile of dirt or loose material. My TLB is 4wd and I easily spin the tires when filling the bucket. However, if I approach the pile with the bucket high until it makes contact, curl down and back to drag loose material downward, and then shuttle back to lower the bucket and forward to load, I can get a full 1.5 yard bucket load every time with minimum effort on the tractor. It's true that I end up with corners on each side of that and I scrape them up when they become large enough to fill my bucket. My point is that the size of bucket, type of materials, and geometry of the area you are working is different for changing materials and conditions. There is just no one good answer.

However, I agree completely that the shoveling pea gravel into a wheelbarrow as the OP stated is obviously the best solution whether the shovel pointed or flat. The great thing about TBN is a poster talks about shoveling into a wheelbarrow, and before the thread is over, we are moving mountains and building Hoover Dam.:laughing: If all those guilty of promoting thread drift raised their hand, mine would certainly be up there.:ashamed:

I agree. Each situation is different. And conditions can change, like one day a pile of loose dirt, a little rain over night, and the next day a pile of hard crud.

As for wheelbarrow, mine has been tucked nicely under the deck since I got my tractor with FEL about 10 years ago! :laughing: I'm thinking about making it into a flowerbed planter.

 

[Milton Burro]

In my experience, when it comes to shoveling pea gravel, or anything else for that matter, the easiest way for me is to get someone else to do it. I don't care where they shovel from in the pile.