Post Hole Digger/Auger Down Force

[MarEng]

Recently dug post holes for a pole barn on an excavated pad in SE Texas. Pad was virgin rock hard/bone dry red clay. Couldn't get the auger to start, It would spin for 20 minutes and barely make a dent. Tried all the usual stuff like hanging two friends off of it, each holding onto a Chevy 350 head, water, etc. No joy. Finally ran the other tractor over and dropped the FEL on the auger top. Used the FEL to create down force (the FEL tractor front wheels were in the air). BOOM! 3'6" hole dug in less than 30 seconds. Hard clay chips flying everywhere. Now for the question - what to do when I only have one tractor on site? Has anyone built a cable rig to use the FEL to pull the three point down? I visualize a pully up front and one back aft with connection points on the FEL cross bar and the gear head for the auger. Cable runs under the tractor. Place and start the auger and then lift on the FEL. Would love to see pictures/hear war stories before I start learning the hard way. I have a bunch of post holes I have to dig in the same soil and the second and third tractors are gone.

 

[beenthere]

I'd look at the auger 'tip' and be sure the teeth are sharp. If that isn't the problem, then look for an auger bit that is designed to cut into a hard material, such as the dry clay. There are bits that will go through asphalt.
I'd not expect a PHD to hold up very well under the kind of 'down-pressure' you are talking about putting on it. The cutting bits can handle just so much, and beyond that, it's just abuse of a tool not designed for going through rock-like hard clay.

 

[Freds]

I'd reccomend having your friends hold onto the heads of a largeblock, not a smallblock.
And next time we want pictures! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Seriously, what you are suggesting sounds like it could have some merit, but side-stepping the boundaries of a power tool has a greater chance for *repercussions* than just putting a pipe on the end of a breaker bar. Although I did recently read a post somewhere about someone making a jig to apply more downforce to a drill motor.... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I don't recall having seen it mentioned here before, but how about a pilot hole first for a struggling PHD? Picking up a small diameter auger bit might be a heck of a lot cheaper than getting a special made for rough conditions bit.

 

[MMM]

Does it have one of these?

pilot

 

[JerryG]

This is great. I have often thought about the same thing with the cable and with pulleys at the front and the back. The boom on the digger would have to be reinforced because the cable would need to be attached up toward the bend. I think that without such a reinforcement, the boom would fold up. Other than that I think that it would work quite well. A removable pulley could be made to fit under the bumper and that rear pulley could be made so that it was attached to the draw bar.

 

[mikim]

I wish I could remember the site I found ... but there is quite a selection of pilot bits out there - go with that before getting hinky with anything more than added weight. I hang 220lbs on mine and that seems to work, but I'm seriously thinking of getting a more aggressive pilot bit.

 

[3RRL]

I think that's a great concept idea and should be figured out how to do. It's funny what you do when you don't know any better. I'm not talking about the concept because I think it's great, but about what happened to when I first got my tractor. Didn't know diddly squat about anything then.

I had disconnected my backhoe for the first time and let it sit. Of course it leaked down and the next time I wanted to mount it on the 3pt there was no way to lift it up to get the lower arms to the pins. (That was the dumb part) I could easily have backed up the tractor, attached the pump to the PTO and operated the hoe to get it into position, but I didn't even think of it at the time.

Anyway, I backed the tractor up to the hoe and rigged some pulleys to run under my ROPS and attached cables to the back hoe and FEL. By lowering the bucket I managed to lift up the backhoe enough to get the lower lift pins into the lower lift arms and was able to make the rest of the 3pt connection. This is exactly what you are talking about except in reverse.

Then I hooked up the pump and started the backhoe. Funny thing is my wife, who watched me do all this said, "honey, why didn't you just plug in that pump thingie and use the legs and bucket to lift up the backhoe?" After it dawned on me, I could have killed her right then. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[EddieWalker]

I was haveing allot of trouble digging through the hard clay with my auger as well. I didn't have anybody around to help with putting more preasure on it and didn't think of adding weights.

I knew it had worked well before, but now I was having trouble. My thought was that it was dull. I took off the cutting tip, which was totally worn flat. I cut a new one from a piece of an old cutting blade of my bush hog.

I ground a sharp edge to it and put it back together.

It cut through that hard ground like nothing. In fact, it cut so fast I almost burried in the ground. This was the same gronund that I couldn't cut into at all.

I think the tractor has plenty of downward preasure, but the cutting edge has to be sharp enough to do it's job. Othewise your forcing square blocks into round holes. You can do it, but what type of damage are you causeing /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Eddie

 

[Freds]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( In fact, it cut so fast I almost burried in the ground )</font>

That's what has me a little concerned about jazzing up the downforce by hooking it up to a FEL. Suppose it digs so well that it lifts the front end off the ground before you can feed it some slack /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
When I use my PHD I have my left foot over the clutch, my right foot on the treadle pedal for "plumb" adjustments, my left hand on the throttle and my right hand on the 3PH lever.... seems like you would need another hand on the FEL's joystick (which I don't think feathers as well as the 3PH does. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I want movies for whoever tries it first /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[andrewj]

boys that cable idea has bloodshed written all over it, and the last thing you want to do is to get one of your friends all wrapped around the axle, literally, by hanging them off the PHD. Careful!

 

[MMM]

I don't know if the bearings and gears would stand up to that kind of load very long. We're not talking a couple sacks of feed here. Could be 2000lbs or so depending on cyl size, etc.

 

[bobodu]

We've been arguing about this over at MBN.Everyone has good points.But with the difference in soils here,sometimes over the course of a little rain,I want some down force.But I am now inclined to go with weight.Noticed in the TSC "Blue Book",that the PHD they sell comes "down force ready" and optional weight kit.But for me..the ponit is moot,because the TPH on my homemade tractor has power up and down by design.

 

[Taylortractornut]

Ive seen the cable work wonders like that. I knew and old man here that had a small company way back from the fifties he installed gas stations. One of his 8N's he had a front blade and and auger on the rear. He had a pulley system he made to that followds the same lines as the Dear born tractor Jack and the light manure loader they had. hen the bit wouldnt go through asphault or the clay here he connected his cable and would raise the blade. I remember it as a kid in the eighties and saw his son use it a few years ago. A few years ago a friend came oer with a similar problem he waned down pressure so I let him use my shop I was busy at the other end of his tractor working on some backdrag rippers for his loader. he cut the toplink eye off and weled on a bracket out of pip to hold 2 foot carhauler cylinder in a verticle position. it was at the same length over al las the old original set up but when power was needed he could put alot of pressure on it. As for the box holding up Ive seen alot of cheapy phd's hung on the baqck of old 480 Case Landscape loaders with power down and push down till the wheels lifted off the ground. I imagine a smaller tractor wouldnt have a big problem with it.

 

[R W]

A PHD is available with hydrualic down pressure, it is mounted
on the 3PL, the top link is fixed so the unit is only carried on the
3PL, it cannot be raised or lowered by it.
The gearbox & auger are mounted on the end of a frame that
pivots, this is controlled (up& down) by 12" or longer ram worked
from the tractor remotes, this supplying downward force.
I built PHD along these lines using a using the GB,PTO, etc
from a 1950s Promac 3PLD, bought a new auger & cutter,
It worked well.
Most 3PL PHD could be converted to this system

R W

 

[MikePA]

A PHD is available with hydrualic down pressure, it is mounted
on the 3PL, the top link is fixed so the unit is only carried on the
3PL, it cannot be raised or lowered by it.
The gearbox & auger are mounted on the end of a frame that
pivots, this is controlled (up& down) by 12" or longer ram worked
from the tractor remotes, this supplying downward force.
I built PHD along these lines using a using the GB,PTO, etc
from a 1950s Promac 3PLD, bought a new auger & cutter,
It worked well.
Most 3PL PHD could be converted to this system

R W

Just an FYI, you do not have to hit Enter at the end of every line when typing a reply.

 

[Raddad]

Buy the down force kit. I usually advocate not buying implements that get little use but this is a safety issue. On a tractor with 25 horse power the torque output is 50 FT/LBS. The PTO gears this down from 3000 RPM to 500 RPM creating about 250 to 300 FT/LBS. The PHD then gears it down a further 3 to 1 ratio creating 750 to 900 FT/LBS of torque! That’s as much as a big diesel engine from a truck! Be careful with PHDs the torque is incredible and allot of injuries occur because of it. It's geared down from 3000 RPM to 100 RPM. Think what the torque is on a big full size tractor.

 

[schmism]

my suggestion....

return (or sell) your 3pt version and get one of these

 

[workinallthetime]

my suggestion....

return (or sell) your 3pt version and get one of these

who what where please.
thanks

 

[john_bud]

Is that a Dansur hydraulic unit? One of those with a set of augers will run over 3 grand, IIRC.

jb

 

[schmism]

i really have no idea what it is other than hydrolic PHD (random google pic)

they run an extra $800 or so (from what ive seen) over a 3pt phd, but if your serious about punching holes in the ground, they are the way to go.

One of the members has a Landpride unit mounted on a QA frame so it sits front and center on his FEL arms (instead of off the side of an arm or bucket)

They offer downforce, and more manuverablity to get into tight spots for those tricky hole placements.

youll need some front hydrolics or long lines to connect to a rear remote or a even rear PTO driven pump.