Post Emissions tractors

[alpacalips]

My experience with tier IV emissions is limited to one tractor, but here's my story.

At work we have a JD 4052R. We have had it for about 18 months (bought new) and it has around 190 hours on it.

When the computer thinks it's time for a regen, it tells you to raise the engine speed to 1500. Once you do this it will not reduce the speed below 1500, regardless of throttle position.

The problem is, it keeps getting stuck in regen mode. I have left it running for up to 3+ hours at times trying to get it to complete the regen. It's currently at the dealership getting checked out. So far they tried a forced regen and it didn't work, they are still looking into it.

I have seen many comments online where people say "you just need to work it harder" or "when it goes into regen, go bush hog a few acres."

Well here's the thing, it's a utility tractor. It gets used for a wide variety of tasks, sometimes for hours, but often for a few minutes at a time. Not everyone is working a field all day or has the time or opportunity to "just do some more work" when the thing decides it's time to clean the DPF. And it's just not feasible to always work it hard when you're loading a few pallets, pulling a few fence posts or digging up a pipe with the backhoe.

After all that, I'm not sure what the point of my story was, except that the jobs you intend to use the machine for can probably have a big effect on how intrusive or troublesome the emissions system is to you.

 

[BobInSD]

I’ve started mine up at 10’ F and had it immediately want to regen. I didn’t like that part as it was inside at the time and I don’t like racing a cold engine. OTOH my last tractor wouldn’t start at those temps without a block heater.

Don't know. I have run my tractor in 20-40 degree weather, but not often. I also put a block heater (dealer install) to shorten warm up time. It may have an effect - T4 does require the engine to run somewhat hot to burn off particulates.

I'm talking about cold weather. Minus 10 or 20 F.

 

[Jstpssng]

I'm talking about cold weather. Minus 10 or 20 F.

At those temps you'd be foolish to start any tractor up and just start running it.

 

[VroomVroom]

On say a 70s or 80s day. How long before moving the hydraulics or hst?

 

[Jstpssng]

On say a 70s or 80s day. How long before moving the hydraulics or hst?

30 seconds. But that's probably longer than needed. I waited the same to warm up my geared tractors.

 

[BobInSD]

At those temps you'd be foolish to start any tractor up and just start running it.

That was my main concern going from gas to diesel last year. This past winter I only had to start it once below 0, but sometimes the snow needs pushed before work. I put a thermometer in the barn, and it stays 8-10 degrees warmer if the previous day was sunny. With that and a block heater I just try to not think about the molasses flow rates of the oil and then warm up the HST for a long time.

Not ideal, but sometimes there's no other option. If there's a foot or less sometimes we just drive over it until it's warm enough to start a tractor but that risks it being really drifted in by the time we get home. Luckily the heavy snow doesn't show up with the coldest nights very often, but the wind here can fill your driveway with last week's snow even on a really cold night.

 

[ljjhouser]

That was my main concern going from gas to diesel last year. This past winter I only had to start it once below 0, but sometimes the snow needs pushed before work. I put a thermometer in the barn, and it stays 8-10 degrees warmer if the previous day was sunny. With that and a block heater I just try to not think about the molasses flow rates of the oil and then warm up the HST for a long time.

Not ideal, but sometimes there's no other option. If there's a foot or less sometimes we just drive over it until it's warm enough to start a tractor but that risks it being really drifted in by the time we get home. Luckily the heavy snow doesn't show up with the coldest nights very often, but the wind here can fill your driveway with last week's snow even on a really cold night.

I'm wondering how far north you are. Only option may be a heated shed (when you need the tractor) AND maybe a block heater. Then, heated gloves, socks, vest, hat for yourself. That is too much for me. I would wuss out and never open the outside door.

 

[BobInSD]

We're about the middle of the state north-south. -30 is rare, and newsworthy, only happens every couple of years. Folks here don't consider-20 to be a big deal, they just slip it into the weather report with no additional drama. Those are nighttime (morning) lows and it nearly always gets up above 0 during the day. There are weeks when it doesn't, maybe once or twice every winter. Thankfully, -20 is too cold to snow and the tractor shouldn't have to be woken up for that.

There are also a lot of days were it's +20, it's not always that cold.

 

[DieselBound]

That is why I bought a Mahindra. No DEF system to worry about.

My Kioti doesn't use DEF (not thinking that any CUT does; BIG tractors probably do).

I suspect what you're really meaning is DPF. And if that's the case, my Kioti has a DPF; DPFs are covered for something like 3,000 hours- most people here aren't going to rack up those kind of hours on their tractors (and if people think they'll be running tractors in 20 years, well, that's some pretty strong forecasting ability!): and DPFs can be cleaned, so their likely survival rate is a lot more than just 3,000 hrs (that's only what is mandated by law in order to get manufacturers to meet emission standards).

No DEF and no DPF means EGR. If one doesn't believe that these can be a problem (if neglected) then I'll be happy to show you what can happen to EGR systems (have plenty of experience with EGR stuff on my diesel cars). Bottom line: ANY emission system that meets Tier IV can be horribly messed up if the tractor isn't run at higher RPMs and worked reasonably hard; even my 2000-era cars' emissions systems will crap up if you don't follow these guidelines.

Going on six years and 700 hours on my DPF Kioti. It hasn't skipped a beat: same with my cars- BECAUSE I operate them as they are supposed to be operated. I'll likely go belly-up before it does...

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

You guys are sure cute with your definitions of "cold".

My tractor sat outside for 3 years, and now sits in an unheated shop building. It regularly gets -30F here in winter, and frequently drops to -40F. Last winter was unusually mild for us, but the winter before that we went about a month and a half where the temp never got warmer than -30F.

Anyway, yes, the cold has an impact on your emissions system. When in my case, the ambient air temp is -40F, and the tractor has sat outside in it, then the tractor and all it's emissions equipment is also at -40F. In my case, the system on my tractor was entirely passive. There were (I say "were" because it's all removed now) no active controls to the system, and no way to do a "forced" or controlled regen. The DPF/DOC canister relied on the heat of the exhaust gas to burn off the soot that was trapped inside the filter elements. When you start it up at -40F, the canister takes so long to get heated (strictly heat from the engine exhaust), that it fills with particles faster than they can be burned off. It is a cumulative effect, and will eventually plug the filter enough that performance drops off and the little idiot light on the dash starts blinking away, and eventually lights solid.

After struggling with this effect for a few winters, I had enough and had some custom surgery done to mine to completely eliminate the emissions system on my Branson. I now have zero issues regardless of the weather or operating conditions.

As to operating the tractor in the cold...

Synthetic oil is a "must" in my opinion. My engine oil is synthetic, but I don't believe my hydro oil is. I run an engine block heater, a stick on pad on the oil pan, and a stick on pad on the side of the hydro sump. All 3 of these heaters are important to consider at these temps. With just the block heater, the synthetic oil will allow you to start the tractor, but the warm up time is extended. Same with the hydro sump heater. Without the hydro heater, you have to "high idle" the tractor for a good 15-20 minutes before the hydro oil gets warm enough to be able to move the tractor at all (HST trans).

But with the 3 heaters, and synthetic engine oil, I can start it up, wait a minute or two, then go to "high idle" (about 1500-1600 rpms), go inside and pour a cup of coffee, then come out and go work the tractor like it's any other day of the year.

I have the tractor plugged in to a timer in winter, it comes on at 4am, and stays on until about 10am. That covers me for week days and week ends (timer doesn't differentiate days of the week). The 3 heaters are then plugged in to that timer at the tractor. I have a pig tail 3-way plug that the 3 heater cords plug into, then the timer plugs into that pig tail.

It is this combination of heaters and synthetic engine oil that makes start up operations quick and easy at these temps.

 

[piper184]

Just a little north and west of Slowpoke Jim and I can confirm his description of our winters. I have a 2006 Jinma 284 and have plowed snow when it was blowing 30+ MPH and -22F. (neighbors plow broke down so I bailed him out). There were times when the hydraulic fluid would get so cold I could barely raise the loader. The wind blowing on the exposed cylinders was extracting head faster than the poor little pump could inject it. Sure glad I had a geared transmission that day!

Pre-T4 and with a coolant heater (1000W tank heater) and proper use of the glow plugs the little beast will start as long as the battery is good and the starter is well maintained. One time I had to run the knipco at the starter under a tarp to get it warm enough to turn over.

Anyway, with no emissions stuff at all, my tractor has never had an engine start or run issue except when the thermostat failed in such a way that it opened at way too low of a temp. I replaced the 180F with a 195F and it helped warm up times and the exhaust does not smoke as much as it did when the engine never got warm enough. That poor tractor sits for weeks sometimes between use and sometimes it gets abused a little but has always been maintained (by me) and I can rely on it with no worries. Emissions stuff probably helps air quality in some places but out here we have air that hasn't been breathed yet! I am grateful to not have yet another system to learn and maintain.

The neighbor mentioned above bought a 50 (ish) HP Branson and has about worn out my trailer hauling it back and forth to the dealer. Well, that was until the dealer went belly up, now he just wants me to fix his issues....

 

[ljjhouser]

Just a little north and west of Slowpoke Jim and I can confirm his description of our winters. I have a 2006 Jinma 284 and have plowed snow when it was blowing 30+ MPH and -22F. (neighbors plow broke down so I bailed him out). There were times when the hydraulic fluid would get so cold I could barely raise the loader. The wind blowing on the exposed cylinders was extracting head faster than the poor little pump could inject it. Sure glad I had a geared transmission that day!

Pre-T4 and with a coolant heater (1000W tank heater) and proper use of the glow plugs the little beast will start as long as the battery is good and the starter is well maintained. One time I had to run the knipco at the starter under a tarp to get it warm enough to turn over.

Anyway, with no emissions stuff at all, my tractor has never had an engine start or run issue except when the thermostat failed in such a way that it opened at way too low of a temp. I replaced the 180F with a 195F and it helped warm up times and the exhaust does not smoke as much as it did when the engine never got warm enough. That poor tractor sits for weeks sometimes between use and sometimes it gets abused a little but has always been maintained (by me) and I can rely on it with no worries. Emissions stuff probably helps air quality in some places but out here we have air that hasn't been breathed yet! I am grateful to not have yet another system to learn and maintain.

The neighbor mentioned above bought a 50 (ish) HP Branson and has about worn out my trailer hauling it back and forth to the dealer. Well, that was until the dealer went belly up, now he just wants me to fix his issues....

Interesting description. That was the missing link - where - ND. That is cold. Sorry to hear about you neighbor. Sounds like he may wind up trading or selling to change brands or machines (hopefully while the tractor is fixed). It is really bad when the dealer goes out. Makes you feel abandoned. Best wishes, Larry

 

[daugen]

At one point I had three diesel tractors and it was interesting to see how the different engines worked.
The older tier 2 engines put out some black smoke on starting but otherwise ran fairly clean but smelly. All engines were 27hp and more.
Tier 3 engine was much less stinky and I could tell the difference on the early Tier IV I had.

I also read that using DEF allowed
the manufacturer to tune the engine for slightly more power. Heresay but what I read.
I've also owned a Farmall Super A that put out a steady stream of light smoke all the way down the potato rows.
Now I expected that driving an antique gas tractor but modern diesels have been pretty clean for a long time.
And so are cars unless you get behind an old MB 240D.

I've put DEF in my Cummins Ram and in my last Massey 70hp tractor. Both ran flawlessly.
I think the issue is more fuel contamination and the inability of common rail fuel injection to handle anything but
pure fuel. I ran both a sediment and water filter on my farm diesel tank and never had any problems at all.

One thing I learned from having diesels in a boat, they sure love preheaters and oil/coolant warmers. Warm the engine up a bit
and they sure seem happier starting. The clatter of a very cold diesel makes me cringe...

New tractors have a lot of features we want that just aren't on some of the old machines,like hydrostatic, cruise control, etc.
I want features, performance and reliability, anything else is a bonus.

I can imagine pulling back into the barn and having the tractor lock into regen when you just want to shut it down and go in and take shower...that might be annoying.

If you had to pick the one emissions tier to avoid, what would it be? Tier 5 I know...