Posse Comitatus Act

Charlie_Iliff · Jul 24, 2002

Yep, Ruby Ridge was in 1992, Bush Sr's watch, and Waco early enough in Clinton's that he had had little imprint on the agencies involved. I'm not sure that over-enthusiastic "law enforcement" is concentrated in one party or the other, however. We need to watch both of them. As noted, the most recent proposal was Joe Biden's. Fortunately, that caused some in the administration immediately to oppose it publicly.

"What I am concerned mostly about is the "war on Terror" will result in a war on law abiding US citizens."

Don't want to volunteer to be collateral damage? Despite the fact that, these days, that's almost unpatriotic, I'm with you.
/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

knucklehead · Jul 24, 2002

Bottom line - I'm agin' it!

Not because I love Mr Ashcroft or detest Ms Reno (which I do in both cases), but because laws remain after good men die. I believe it was this idea that our Forefathers had in mind when they penned carefully crafted founding documents to guide us in light of our flawed humanity. And why it is crucial to vehemently resist changes to and interpretations of those documents.

When good men rule, we have justice. When evil men rule, we have chaos. This is a pretty accurate paraphrase from Proverbs. If Mr. Ashcroft is making a mistake, it is by forgetting that current actions may have negative ramifications in the hands of less scrupulous men.

CS, CA, N2, O2, Dihydrouspolydiethelflouronitrousokiedokie - I don't care. They killed everyone. How come no one found any automatic weapons in the rubble? Didn't they go there on alleged weapons violations? Certainly it wasn't because Koresh was having sex with partners other than his wife (sounds familiar..../w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif/w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif) which he was, because his interpretation of the Bible was crafted to allow him to pursue his favorite sin. He was a rat, leading weak people astray - he deserved what he got, and he'll get more. Our government acted like jack-booted thugs, and continued to in numerous other cases, like Florida. Both Koresh and Reno are proof of the contention that character counts, and unbridled power should not be conferred on men even in good times. Even religious men. I trust our current leaders, but I continue to pray for God's guidance. I heartily encourage everyone to do the same.

Ozarker · Jul 24, 2002

I would have no problem believing that a local office had a much better plan. Locals are often better able to assess the situation and act accordingly. Things almost always get screwed up when a higher headquarters try's to take over be it law enforcement or a civilian organization.

Ozarker · Jul 24, 2002

Yep, your right. Happened in Aug 92.

It isn't a party issue at all. Ruby Ridge would never have happened if Reagon had done what many in Congress wanted him to do in the 80's.......eliminate the ATF. Rep Dingle (D) was the first one to call the ATF a bunch of Jack Booted Thugs and he did it in the floor of Congress in a debate over funding in the 80's.

The blame for Ruby Ridge or Waco can't be placed on any President. In both cases the blame is clearly on the ATF. If it were staffed with competent professionals instead of "cowboys", neither event would have happened. One might even understand why the FBI went into Ruby Ridge with guns blazing. The US Marshals, trying to cover up, said that they had been ambushed by the Weavers and that there had been a big firefight. It was weeks after the killings that anyone knew what really happened and it was the Marshals that did the ambushing of a dog and 14 year old boy.

So I guess the question would be why do conservatives blame Reno/Clinton? That's easy. Clinton appointed an idiot to be AG to appear politically correct. And it wasn't even his first choice idiot. He gets the blame for that.

Reno gets the blame because not only did she fail to clean up the FBI after the scathing Justice Department reports on Ruby Ridge came out, she actively worked to prevent the prosecution of Lon Horiuchi for manslaughter. Then, along came Waxo and she allowed the same incompetent oafs to be in charge with little or no oversight. She reprimanded Larry Pots for lack of oversight at Ruby Ridge.....then did exactly the same thing, with the same group of uncontrolled hotheads, at Waco.

Want to know what really happened on day 51 at Waco? Forget about the debate on who set the fire. What happened was a group of cowboys decided to push it to the limits. They had what they believed to be a nut case in a building where they had spent 50 days pushing his buttons and on day 51 they decided to push it to an end no matter what happened. And they did it with the blessing of the Attorney General.

What they did is comparable to a man on a ledge threatening to jump and the negotiators around him taunting him, telling him to go ahead and jump and then rushing him.

Nope, Reno didn't use the FBI, the FBI used Reno. And she was incompetent enough to let them.

Charlie_Iliff · Jul 24, 2002

"What happened was a group of cowboys decided to push it to the limits."

That one should draw a response from cowboydoc. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

You are certainly right. And although the ATF seems the most consistent recruiter of that personality, every law enforcement agency has some. As Roy pointed out in his very first post, we don't need to give that type the authority to order up military attacks in addition to any current powers.

Ozarker · Jul 24, 2002

Unfortunately, we are already suffering from "military attacks" by civilian law enforcement. SWAT teams have evolved into paramilitary groups, use military tactics and many get trained by the military. I'm at Ft Leonard Wood where the military police school is and I can assure you that civilian police receive tactics and weapons training here. If you are looking for a job and have a military police/security background, they are building a couple of new courses for anti-terrorism and personal protective services. You can apply through the USA jobs site.

Charlie_Iliff · Jul 24, 2002

I'm at Ft Leonard Wood where the military police school is 
Way back when, I was stationed at Ft. Gordon, GA. At that time, the MP school was there. Later, in the reserves, we got training at A.P.Hill in riot control, since ordinary troops can be called up for that. No doubt some training is similar or identical, and has to be, I guess.

Wingnut · Jul 24, 2002

Unreasonable wretch I am, certainly. I find it extremely unreasonable that you consider it "consensual sex" when every definition the courts have used would disagree. It can NEVER be consexual sex (and how DO you define sex?) if it is between an employee and a superior ... not according to the courts.
When you say wretches pursuing a real estate scam ... are you referring to the ongoing Democrat investigation into a closed SEC case against GWB? Or is this some other real estate scam, where real people lost their life savings? Hmm ... spending millions on investigations ... sounds like the IRS investigating "right-wing" organizations. Nope, that can't be what you're referring to ... guess you'll have to explain.
Has the Federal Police Force no role? Well ... according to the constitution of these United States ... I certainly don't believe so. I believe the Feds are allowed to manage the national affairs outside the country and make sure the states behave themselves (interstate commerce) ... but are required to leave policing and taxing of the citizens to the states .... or am I thinking of the constitution of a parallel universe USA?

You don't believe Wacko Reno so used the FBI and ATF? Hmm ... wonder why she adnitted responsibility? Oh ... probably in that parallel universe again ... silly me /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif.
And like you ... I certainly don't believe the average liberal dances with the devil .... I doubt that the devil would want them around .../w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Chuck52 · Jul 25, 2002

Unreasonable wretch I am, certainly. I find it extremely unreasonable that you consider it "consensual sex" when every definition the courts have used would disagree. It can NEVER be consexual sex (and how DO you define sex?) if it is between an employee and a superior ... not according to the courts.

Unreasonable and unreasoning. If you think truly consensual sex between adults is sexual harassment if one is the "boss" of the other then you and Ashcroft will get along just fine. Do you understand "consensual"? It means they both wanted to. The law about sexual harassment protects employees who the boss claims consented to his or her advances, but who in fact did not. If said employee, like Monica Lewinsky, never complains of being coerced, there is no harassment. Had your good buddy Star left her alone, she apparently would have continued quite happily in whatever she and Bill were doing, which was their business, and perhaps his wife's concern, alone. One perfectly good and to me acceptable explanation of how I define sex, by the way, is "none of your [censored] business", which is what Clinton should have replied when asked. Now Ashcroft, and perhaps you, might like to limit sexual relations to married men and women, one of each please, using the missionary position, and only for procreation.

Pull that bug out. Clean it off. Let it go free. Learn to be satisfied with your own private life and quit worrying about Bill's.

Chuck

cp1969 · Jul 25, 2002

Clinton had a chance to do that (proclaim that it's "none of your ......business") at least twice--once on tv, wagging his finger, and a second time, under oath. The first time he lied bald-facedly was bad enough, the second time was perjury. That is not a good thing for the President to do.

Secondly, anyone--ANYONE--else in Federal government or business large enough for sexual harrassment laws to apply, caught doing what he did, consensual or not, would be fired--no questions asked.