Ponds and insurance

[Cliff_Johns]

Does having a pond close to your buildings still reduce insurance costs? It used to be that the fire departments would have pumpers that would pull water from a near-by pond, thus if you had such a pond, your insurance would be lower.

However, we've been told by our agent that that is not true anymore. Does anyone have a different experience?

If it matters, this is for a farm in Carbon County Pa.

Cliff

 

[kootch88]

Does having a pond close to your buildings still reduce insurance costs? It used to be that the fire departments would have pumpers that would pull water from a near-by pond, thus if you had such a pond, your insurance would be lower.

However, we've been told by our agent that that is not true anymore. Does anyone have a different experience?

If it matters, this is for a farm in Carbon County Pa.

Cliff

The insurance companies now use Zip Codes in every case that I am aware, and the experience rating (loss experience) for a particular zip code are what determines rates. I'm an insurance agent, so I have some experience with this.

 

[hosspuller]

Another point ...The fire responders that serve your area have a rating. Depending on that rating, your home premium rises or falls. My FD recently got an upgrade... I got a decrease when I pointed that out to the ins agent.

 

[kootch88]

At my camp if you have a fire it is pretty certain to be a total loss, so my insurance for my camp is higher than my big house down here in the civilized world.

 

[forgeblast]

Our local fire company asks on a form every year where the nearest pond is to the house. It might be good to just let them know.

 

[Storm56]

Does having a pond close to your buildings still reduce insurance costs? It used to be that the fire departments would have pumpers that would pull water from a near-by pond, thus if you had such a pond, your insurance would be lower.

However, we've been told by our agent that that is not true anymore. Does anyone have a different experience?

If it matters, this is for a farm in Carbon County Pa.

Cliff

I owned an insurance agency in PA for 22 years, just retired this year. The answer to your question is basicly no. if your home is within site of 10 or so other homes some carriers offer a discount even though you are not within 1000 feet of a fire hydrant. Often called something like a Suburban Rule.

The short list of reasons why companies no longer offer the discount you ask about is that things can happen to ponds like going dry, people removing them, or when needed, access is not available.

 

[rickyb01]

Storm56 hit the nail on the head

 

[Cliff_Johns]

Thanks for the replys -- especially storm56. My question is answered

 

[jonyyuma]

There was an exemption if the pond was a certain depth and it had a standpipe to it...Not sure about your local exemptions.. What people fail to see , is that a truck must stay acertain distance from the pond, and it must have a hard suction hose and strainer for a pond operation.. A lot of VFD's have a dump tank arraingement for ferrying water..Or their own water tankers to carry water..

 

[Ken45101]

The rural department I was on had a portable pump to carry to a water source.

As for rating by zip code, our zip code includes the village which has hydrants, and places that are 30 minutes from the nearest hydrant.

I think drop tanks have become fairly standard since I was on that department and standard procedures here are to call for mutual aid tankers with the initial response.

Ken

 

[dmccarty]

I think the answer is going to depend on local issues and details.

A few years ago our county Fire Marshall did a heck of a job finding, listing, posting, mapping and getting permission to use farm ponds as water sources. There are little signs all of the the place, I think with WP, indicating there is a pond nearby. Sometimes you can see the pond other times you can't.

His work improved the county's ratings and supposedly lowered our premiums. This was a county wide effort not just one pond on a property.

Seems like some of the CA TBNers might have been required to have a pond/pool on property for fire insurance?

You can always call up your state insurance commission or whatever it is called and see what they say.

Later,
Dan

 

[charliepff]

It can still help reduce the ISO rating of the entire coverage area if you have an accesible pond. DCNR has grants to install dry hydrants. So while you may not get a discount individially per say, it will still help in the long run. While fire departments bring drop tanks with them, they still need to get the water from somewhere to put in them. The general rule for dry hydrants is to have one installed every three square miles. This means that at a 35mph average with a tanker the trip will take about 6 minutes. Obviously other conditions affect this, but, this is the general rule. The fire department can do drills in rural areas to lower the iso rating also. The more dry hydrants they can show on the books the more it helps them to lower the areas insurance rating.

There was an exemption if the pond was a certain depth and it had a standpipe to it...Not sure about your local exemptions.. What people fail to see , is that a truck must stay acertain distance from the pond, and it must have a hard suction hose and strainer for a pond operation.. A lot of VFD's have a dump tank arraingement for ferrying water..Or their own water tankers to carry water..

It is not a must to have a dry hydrant but it is extremely helpful. They can vary in distance from the pond. We have a few hear that are about a hundred or so feet from the water source. The horizontal distance does not affect drafting per say. It is more air to get out when drafting water from a pond but vertical distance from the water is what makes or breaks drafting from a pond. The only limit we have on getting close to the water is the ground leading to it. If it is not a hard surface most departments will not get a rig stuck trying to get water. I have pulled to within one or two feet of the water source in the past. Like I said up top, they must eventually have a source to refill their tankers. That is the reason for all of the ponds and dry hydrants we try to get permission to use. As far as hard suction hose and strainers, all trucks should have these. The only places I never seen them have hard sleeve or strainers has been city areas. It actually bit New Orleans in the seat meat not having this, but thats another story.

Oh, I forgot to add; I work in VA and we just went through an ISO evaluation to lower are rating. I am a driver pump operator assigned to a rural engine company and I occasionally give informational sessions to co-workers and homeowners on rural water issues.

 

[Storm56]

It can still help reduce the ISO rating of the entire coverage area if you have an accesible pond. DCNR has grants to install dry hydrants. So while you may not get a discount individially per say, it will still help in the long run. While fire departments bring drop tanks with them, they still need to get the water from somewhere to put in them. The general rule for dry hydrants is to have one installed every three square miles. This means that at a 35mph average with a tanker the trip will take about 6 minutes. Obviously other conditions affect this, but, this is the general rule. The fire department can do drills in rural areas to lower the iso rating also. The more dry hydrants they can show on the books the more it helps them to lower the areas insurance rating.


It is not a must to have a dry hydrant but it is extremely helpful. They can vary in distance from the pond. We have a few hear that are about a hundred or so feet from the water source. The horizontal distance does not affect drafting per say. It is more air to get out when drafting water from a pond but vertical distance from the water is what makes or breaks drafting from a pond. The only limit we have on getting close to the water is the ground leading to it. If it is not a hard surface most departments will not get a rig stuck trying to get water. I have pulled to within one or two feet of the water source in the past. Like I said up top, they must eventually have a source to refill their tankers. That is the reason for all of the ponds and dry hydrants we try to get permission to use. As far as hard suction hose and strainers, all trucks should have these. The only places I never seen them have hard sleeve or strainers has been city areas. It actually bit New Orleans in the seat meat not having this, but thats another story.

Oh, I forgot to add; I work in VA and we just went through an ISO evaluation to lower are rating. I am a driver pump operator assigned to a rural engine company and I occasionally give informational sessions to co-workers and homeowners on rural water issues.

I guess it is possible in some locals for procedures such as this to lower an ISO rating. Maybe perhaps take it from a 10 rating to a 9. In my 22 years in the business I have never seen or heard of it happening and we do have some area's around that have the 10 rating.

And further in PA what determines the difference between a 9 or 10 rating is as a rule, the distance to a fire company, not the source of water they pull from.

My thoughts are that such an undertaking around here would most likely be cost prohibitive in most locals unless big brother footed the bill. Certainly the relatively minor savings in home owner's insurance premiums would hardly be worth the effort and costs. That said I did have some carriers that would simply not write a policy in an area that was a 10.

Remember that all states have somewhat different rules, I am speaking of my experiences in PA, things could certainly be different elsewhere.

 

[kootch88]

We probably have a review of the rating every 5 years and are due for another here. Every time a review is done some go up in the rating and some go down depending on factors as mentioned previously.

The whole process is a pain because of the calls it generates because the insurers do not just go by the rating in the state, but also by their loss experience within certain zip codes, so we can not say "it is because of a single factor and look here".

 

[LBrown59]

Does having a pond close to your buildings still reduce insurance costs?



Cliff

I would think it would increase your ins. cost just like a swimming pool does.

 

[kootch88]

I would think it would increase your ins. cost just like a swimming pool does.

Pools do not increase insurance costs in most states, but safety precautions are required. Natural ponds and waterways do not require the same duty of care.

 

[pacerron]

I was told by our VFD that they do not normally use water from ponds.
You must have a filtered dry hydrant and it must be located, piped to your drive or other solid accessible surface so the heavy trucks don't get stuck.
They have to approve the set up and then put it on their map but it is up to the firefighters if they think it is useable at the time of the fire.
So too many if's and's and but's to help your insurance rate unless the carrier
has the rate padded so they can use this as a sales pitch. Compare prices and be sure it is written in the contract...

 

[Fossil Farm]

If the soils are able to support a pond, many planning commissions "highly recommend" a developer to install at least one pond with a dry hydrant in our area. Of course the hydrant is accessible from the road. If anyone is going to build a pond, and it is close to an all weather road, a dry hydrant would well be worth the money, whether you get a break on insurance or not. There were several grants available to help cover the cost of the dry hydrants, not sure if they are available in your area.

 

[Cliff_Johns]

I had not heard of the this "dry hydrant" concept. I shall look into it.
Cliff

 

[charliepff]

I guess it is possible in some locals for procedures such as this to lower an ISO rating. Maybe perhaps take it from a 10 rating to a 9. In my 22 years in the business I have never seen or heard of it happening and we do have some area's around that have the 10 rating.

And further in PA what determines the difference between a 9 or 10 rating is as a rule, the distance to a fire company, not the source of water they pull from.

My thoughts are that such an undertaking around here would most likely be cost prohibitive in most locals unless big brother footed the bill. Certainly the relatively minor savings in home owner's insurance premiums would hardly be worth the effort and costs. That said I did have some carriers that would simply not write a policy in an area that was a 10.

Remember that all states have somewhat different rules, I am speaking of my experiences in PA, things could certainly be different elsewhere.

Not sure where you sell insurance at but I seen ISO evaluations or audits in PA and VA. We took our department from a ISO of 6 down to a 4 in eastern PA. Their are many factors considered into this. Not just distance to the firehouse. Yes, distance to water and the water available affects it. Everything from water supply, staffing, equipment, and training. All of this affects the rating. I encourage you to look into this. I think it will surprise you what you will find. I spent an hour looking into this and only skimmed what all affects the rating. We were also evaluated on the mutual aid companies we used for a house fire assignment. A pond and a dry hydrant is beneficial to you and your neighbors. Especially if you have the pond already. The dry hydrant can be paid for through a grant from DNR.

I was told by our VFD that they do not normally use water from ponds.
You must have a filtered dry hydrant and it must be located, piped to your drive or other solid accessible surface so the heavy trucks don't get stuck.
They have to approve the set up and then put it on their map but it is up to the firefighters if they think it is useable at the time of the fire.
So too many if's and's and but's to help your insurance rate unless the carrier
has the rate padded so they can use this as a sales pitch. Compare prices and be sure it is written in the contract...

I think you are getting some false infromation. I have not seen a department yet that will not use straight pond water for fighting fires. I would also be willing to say if they got sued for not using a closer water source that was available they would loose that argument. We do pre-plan our water sources but we will use wate ever is close and available. VA is a little different since we can not trespass to take water from a persons pond without written permission. Not sure where you live but this the first time I have ever heard a fire department being so stingy about having to have a filtered dry hydrant. We do prefer easy access but that is not always the case. It is our job to use the best, closest and most efficient water source and tactics to control the situation. Even if we have to buy or adapt equipment to work in that area. Such as a four wheel drive with a front mount pump.

Cliff_Johns, check out this link. Dry Hydrants
I also have a power point I can send you with information.

If you do not do a pond I would suggest adding an underground cistern with a dry hydrant or a holding tank and dry sprinkler system in your house. I think people are also forgetting the main reason for dry hydrants and such, that is for the saftey of you and your family. Yes, an insurance discount is nice but I would think the added saftey would be the primary reason of doing this. If anyone would like any more infor please PM me as I do not log into here much.