Planting an orchard - what to do to improve the soil?

[forgeblast]

"non grafted saplings", not sure? all apples you buy will be grafted. I wrote about bench grafts, which are not fully healed and require a lot of extra care. If you look at lawyer nursery you will see that they will sell them by caliper size in I think bundles of 5. You can buy your own rootstock there also.

 

[dave1949]

Apples are weird really. If I understand it correctly, I could purchase scions of a given variety and field graft them onto the wild apple trees I have. That branch would eventually produce the same variety as the scion. Is that correct?

 

[dmccarty]

Apples are weird really. If I understand it correctly, I could purchase scions of a given variety and field graft them onto the wild apple trees I have. That branch would eventually produce the same variety as the scion. Is that correct?

Yes.

Every Red Delicious apple that has been grown has been from a graft that goes back to the one and only apple tree that was a Red Delicious. If you grow an apple tree from a seed you will get a unique, never seen before variety.

A guy I know who literally wrote the book on southern heritage apples has a small orchard. Some of the trees produce multiple apple varieties.

Later,
Dan

 

[dave1949]

Yes.

Every Red Delicious apple that has been grown has been from a graft that goes back to the one and only apple tree that was a Red Delicious. If you grow an apple tree from a seed you will get a unique, never seen before variety.

A guy I know who literally wrote the book on southern heritage apples has a small orchard. Some of the trees produce multiple apple varieties.

Later,
Dan

I thought I had a handle on it. It just seems odd. I have seen the five variety apple trees for sale by nurseries. At one time, maybe still, most apples were grown by graftings on crab apple root stock.

Years ago, someone made a stab at creating an orchard on my lot. Most of the original stock must be gone because I can't pick out any pattern in the remnant trees that looks like rows, and the trees are too young anyways. I'm pretty sure the majority of them are from seeds off the original planting. They are all their own unique "variety" and mostly not good eating for people.

The wildlife isn't picky. If someone wanted to have apples for wildlife purposes, the cheapest way is to just toss your apple cores or apples gone bad around, they say. I believe that would work from what I have observed here. Beats paying $$ for trees to plant in a food plot area that have to be babied.

 

[TomSeller]

I have an old orchard dating back to the 1880s. About 40 of the original 150 full size trees are still alive but we are losing a few every year. I had great plans to replant the orchard until I discovered apple replant disease.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_replant_disease

Anything I plant is stunted. I am not the type to treat the soil with chemicals and I have heard of a few rootstocks that are resistant but I don't know if they are available to the backyard hobbyist. They are also not full size as the original trees were.

http://www.cctec.cornell.edu/plants/GENEVA-Apple-Rootstocks-Comparison-Chart-120911.pdf

The original trees I have were planted by ancestors and would have traveled by covered wagon. I have been able to save many of the varieties onto new rootstock and planted the graftings at various spots on my property but want to get the orchard itself replanted for family history purposes. Anyone with experience in this field?

 

[teejk]

I have an old orchard dating back to the 1880s. About 40 of the original 150 full size trees are still alive but we are losing a few every year. I had great plans to replant the orchard until I discovered apple replant disease.

Specific replant disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anything I plant is stunted. I am not the type to treat the soil with chemicals and I have heard of a few rootstocks that are resistant but I don't know if they are available to the backyard hobbyist. They are also not full size as the original trees were.

http://www.cctec.cornell.edu/plants/GENEVA-Apple-Rootstocks-Comparison-Chart-120911.pdf

The original trees I have were planted by ancestors and would have traveled by covered wagon. I have been able to save many of the varieties onto new rootstock and planted the graftings at various spots on my property but want to get the orchard itself replanted for family history purposes. Anyone with experience in this field?

No tree lasts forever and I'm surprised you would have even a 50 year old apple tree! In your case I think I would get the soil tested and replant where needed. If it makes you feel any better, the dead stock makes great smoking wood. Trend now is semi-dwarf trees solely because of the spacing. I helped a friend plant 30 a few weeks ago (after helping build a 65x100 enclosure to keep the deer out). A lot more varieties now than when I did mine. Do some research though on cross pollination. Maybe things have changed but I recall needing a few different trees to get them to pollinate (back in the day I did Macintosh, red and yellow delicious...on pears I needed a bartlett and something else...on plums it was santa rosa and something else).

This discussion is making me change my priorities!!! We have really sandy soil and I don't know whether anything will grow here but I really enjoyed taking care of fruit trees. Pruning/training/spraying but in some years the effort was worth it (picking/jelly making/eating).

 

[Jstpssng]

I have an old orchard dating back to the 1880s. About 40 of the original 150 full size trees are still alive but we are losing a few every year. I had great plans to replant the orchard until I discovered apple replant disease.

Specific replant disease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Anything I plant is stunted. I am not the type to treat the soil with chemicals and I have heard of a few rootstocks that are resistant but I don't know if they are available to the backyard hobbyist. They are also not full size as the original trees were.

http://www.cctec.cornell.edu/plants/GENEVA-Apple-Rootstocks-Comparison-Chart-120911.pdf

The original trees I have were planted by ancestors and would have traveled by covered wagon. I have been able to save many of the varieties onto new rootstock and planted the graftings at various spots on my property but want to get the orchard itself replanted for family history purposes. Anyone with experience in this field?

You're looking at a rough road after all that time... those old trees aren't going to give way to mew pups moving in.

Seriously though, you're doing a great job propagating those old species. Don't lose focus though by trying to replant in tbe exact location; it's a lot safer to plant on new ground, and preserve what your ancestor sowed.

 

[Jstpssng]

Apples are weird really. If I understand it correctly, I could purchase scions of a given variety and field graft them onto the wild apple trees I have. That branch would eventually produce the same variety as the scion. Is that correct?

Absolutely correct; Dolly may have been the first warm blooded creature that was copied; yet clonimg has been going on for centuries. That:s how all apple trees are copied; and It's my understanding that bananas can't even be reproduced sexually any more.

The OP did say he was going to dig a continuous trench for each row of trees. Somebody else said that was a good idea. So, the OP shouldn't really need to worry about the "container" effect if he trenches.

I have planted container-grown shrubs in "cheap" holes. Some never do extend their roots into the surrounding soil. One I remember well struggled for a couple years, got ugly as time went along, so I dug it up. The roots were a pathetic little misshapen clump. It actually started dying the day I planted it. :laughing:

Thank you for pointing that out... I did read the OP's posts yet sometimes we lose track of the original question


Every year I prune a small orchard, which the current owner's father planted back in 1952. Until now I never thoight about it; but next time I'm there I'll have to ask Tom about what site prep his father did before plamting those 60 year old trees.

 

[forgeblast]

The Heirloom Orchardist: The Heirloom Orchardist's Recommended Apple Trees
The Search for Rare, Heritage Apples - All About Apples Blog - MOTHER EARTH NEWS
Should have more info for you.

 

[Bikewanderer]

Update - we are having a ahrd time getting trees. I've been holding off planting because I didn't have water in yet. Got the water lines run last night, but can't find trees now. Looks like we'll have to wait until fall. Also, I didn't want the power company to see me planting trees BEFORE they put their lines in. The power lines go almost right over one row of trees.

The orchard is planted in my old bean field, next to my new house. It was worked last year. I think I am just going to call it good at digging a hole and planting.

 

[Jstpssng]

Update - we are having a ahrd time getting trees. I've been holding off planting because I didn't have water in yet. Got the water lines run last night, but can't find trees now. Looks like we'll have to wait until fall. Also, I didn't want the power company to see me planting trees BEFORE they put their lines in. The power lines go almost right over one row of trees.

The orchard is planted in my old bean field, next to my new house. It was worked last year. I think I am just going to call it good at digging a hole and planting.

Good luck!

 

[dave1949]

Update - we are having a ahrd time getting trees. I've been holding off planting because I didn't have water in yet. Got the water lines run last night, but can't find trees now. Looks like we'll have to wait until fall. Also, I didn't want the power company to see me planting trees BEFORE they put their lines in. The power lines go almost right over one row of trees.

The orchard is planted in my old bean field, next to my new house. It was worked last year. I think I am just going to call it good at digging a hole and planting.

Actually, that would give you time to get a soils test, layout the rows, make any soil amendments needed in the planting locations (holes). This fall it would make your planting easier and more likely to get your trees off to a good start. I think it is sort of like house painting, without good prep work, it is hard to get the best results.

In the meantime, if the bean field is barren of weeds, or very sparse, you could transplant a few tree seedlings from around your lot, any kind should do, into the former soybean field. This would test for any herbicide residues that could stunt the fruit trees.

 

[forgeblast]

Gives you time to if deer are around also get some fencing it, and make sure your have something to protect the trunks from winter rabbits. Also limb spreaders are good to get to make sure the trees branches grow out the way you want them to.

 

[teejk]

Gives you time to if deer are around also get some fencing it, and make sure your have something to protect the trunks from winter rabbits. Also limb spreaders are good to get to make sure the trees branches grow out the way you want them to.

It's been awhile since I had fruit trees but curious about "limb spreaders". I used to "train" the trees via pruning. As for deer fencing, I helped a friend enclose a 100x65 area (8' high fencing) to prevent deer damage. He since added chicken wire at the bottom for the rabbits. Mice and stuff will also be a problem but I think that is a matter of keeping the grass short. But anyway, with that enclosure, I was wondering whether grapes are compatible with fruit trees. That 100' stretch of wire fencing is quite frankly pretty ugly and I was thinking about grapes or hops or something that needs the wire to climb.

 

[Jstpssng]

It's been awhile since I had fruit trees but curious about "limb spreaders". I used to "train" the trees via pruning. As for deer fencing, I helped a friend enclose a 100x65 area (8' high fencing) to prevent deer damage. He since added chicken wire at the bottom for the rabbits. Mice and stuff will also be a problem but I think that is a matter of keeping the grass short. But anyway, with that enclosure, I was wondering whether grapes are compatible with fruit trees. That 100' stretch of wire fencing is quite frankly pretty ugly and I was thinking about grapes or hops or something that needs the wire to climb.

On new plantings we simply put clothespins on the main stem to train the buds to limb out... it only takes a couple weeks of growing for them to take the shape you train it to.. on the trees I'm doing now it's more restorative work and I tie the sprout which I'm trying to train off to a lower limb... thanks for reminding me, I need to order some tie material for summer pruning next month.

On true dwarf trees they are tied to a trellis, and pruned so that everything besides the main stem is new wood every few years... kind of like the grapevines you mention.
Mice are indeed a problem, but as you mention keeping the grass short helps, also cleaning up the drops so they have nothing to feed on.

Tree guards Rainbow Professional LTD White Spiral Tree Guards, 24 inch
are a worthwhile investment, though they do recommend taking them off in summer to reduce the chances of tree borer.
If mice do get the trees they can still be saved... I spent two weeks one spring doing "bridge grafts" to bypass the mouse damage.

 

[marimus]

A good way to improve the soil throughout the whole orchard is to throw some clover seed around :thumbsup:

 

[Jstpssng]

A good way to improve the soil throughout the whole orchard is to throw some clover seed around :thumbsup:

It's going to be in his old bean patch so he probably had already gotten the same results.. (I would still do a soil test if I was him though.)

 

[forgeblast]

Limb Spreader Assortment - Additional Tools & Supplies - Stark Bro's are the ones we have. They hold in place well.