Outside air intake

   / Outside air intake #41  
Would have to bore through a brick wall to obtain outside air .

Bricks are soft not a problem. Our basement water heater was converted over to gas (new unit) and they drilled a 4" hole for the exhaust thru a 6" concrete wall. Nice job and really didnt take much time to do.
Well worth the $$$
 
   / Outside air intake #42  
Norm - I'll add some numbers that might help in your decision making.

I suspect that, depending on how airtight your house is, that adding a combustion air intake may not make any noticeable difference to the temperature.

When we moved into our house I was glad to see that it had separate combustion air intakes for both the wood stove and fireplace. Both units are in the centre of their rooms, so the ducting is under the floor. Intuitively I thought that outside air intakes would be a good thing. One year I was cleaning the rodent grill over the combustion air intakes when a stove fire was burning. I could barely notice any air movement. To confirm that there was some I draped a Kleenex over the grill and could see it suck in against the grill, but there wasn't much air movement. I've always wondered how much air was being used so when you posted your question it prompted me to do some research and some calculations. Details of my calculations below, but the summary is that the volume of air used for combustion is small compared to the normal air infiltration into many houses - so small that you might not notice any difference whether the combustion air goes directly into the stove or if it comes from the room and gets replaced by air leaking into the house. In the calculation that I did below, the "natural" infiltration of air into the house was 267 CFM and the wood stove combustion air usage was 10 CFM.

As others have mentioned, there are situations where outside combustion air helps to prevent backdrafting when the house is depressured by mechanical equipment. Depending on the type, the amount of air sucked out of a house by a clothes dryer or a kitchen exhaust fan can be 10-100 times as much as the natural draft that a wood stove chimney produces.

We also use a combination of hydronic heating (circulating warm water through in-floor tubes) and wood stove heating. If you're like me you've already given some thought to a way to heat the hydronic water with the wood stove. That would be the best way to distribute the stove's heat throughout the house.

Chris



Here are the details of my calculation, with the sources where I got the data, for anyone who wants to check my numbers. Don't be shy to let me know if I've screwed something up :)

- For this experiment we'll burn 100 lbs of wood in 24 hours.
- From what I've read, good wood combustion needs 10-12 lbs of air per lb of fuel, so we'd use 1100 lbs of air while burning those 100 lbs of wood.
(see slide 11 of the following):https://is.muni.cz/el/1423/podzim2013/MEB423/um/Wood_Lesson_02.pdf)
- 1100 lbs of air at 0.0765 lb/cubic foot takes up 14380 cubic feet at standard conditions
Density of air - Wikipedia
- So the flowrate of combustion air is 14380 cubic feet divided by 24 hours divided by 60 minutes per hour = 10 cubic feet per minute (CFM)

Hmm...we all know that a lot of extra air beyond what is needed for wood combustion goes flying up an open front fireplace. What happens with a wood stove? Probably some of that happens there too. There isn't a way to calculate that, though. It would have to be measured.

- I'll guess that your 2000 square foot house has 8 foot ceilings. That's 16000 cubic feet of indoor air volume.
- This is the tricky bit. How airtight is your house? The only way to know that is to do a "blower door" test, then extrapolate that higher than normal infiltration level down to what your house would experience for "natural" infiltration. Normal conditions depend on the temperature difference between inside and out, what the wind speed is, etc., so "natural" infiltration varies quite a bit. After reading a bunch of material on this and considering that this is a log house I'm going to use 1 air change per hour as the natural infiltration into the building. If you do some research on this you'll see numbers that vary quite a bit.
- 16000 cubic feet of air exchanging once per hour = 267 CFM
 
   / Outside air intake
  • Thread Starter
#43  
That's a lot of work Chris you did. Thanks for the effort.
This is a very leaky house. I often kid that it's leaky enough to minimize the threat of lung cancer as the air in the house is so "fresh" all the time. I mean I can feel "outside" when on the couch harvesting potatoes. As with everything else, one decision will always create an opposite condition.

As far as heating water with a wood stove, I know a couple people around here who did so with the installation of water coils. One guy went from feeding his stove every 8 hrs to doing so every 4 hrs. They learned to like the constant 72* temps. Another heated his water with his coil set up only to have the stove produce way less radiant heat. He also fed his stove more.

It's certainly what one gets used to. In winter with the wood stove, it keeps the house between 65-68* which is fine by me. A few 25* days , not gonna do it without help from the oil eater.

As usual and one of my favorite quotes: "the devil is in the details". What am I doing heating the cellar when its not a living space? A water coil would certainly mitigate that scenario I believe.
 
   / Outside air intake #44  
Don't have to buy corn this year for my corn burner. Getting it delivered and augered into my bulk bin for free, 850 bushels. I'm tickled pink.
 
   / Outside air intake
  • Thread Starter
#45  
Don't have to buy corn this year for my corn burner. Getting it delivered and augered into my bulk bin for free, 850 bushels. I'm tickled pink.

Oh so that's your avatar picture! Quite the unit. Whats the equivalent in btu's of 850 bushels compared to cord wood? Betcha Chris would know.
 
   / Outside air intake #46  
My wood stove has a fan that comes on when it heats up. The HVAC intake is in the same room up high. I leave the fan in the HVAC on and the stove heats the whole house. It has an outside air intake. The codes required it. I use manufactured logs at night and when we are not home. They burn a long time. It will go all night or day and be hot enough to start cord wood back up. My heat pump almost never runs in winter. I use cord wood to get it going and when we are home to keep adding more since I have lots of trees so it's nearly free. Just fuel for the saw splitter and tractor.
 
   / Outside air intake #47  
I would not call my 1988 house tight but it is not a leaker by any means. My wood stove insert is ducted down on each side to the vented crawl space. While the more distant rooms are naturally colder than the central part of the house, they are not drafty. I would not want to be without outside air for combustion over room air.
 
   / Outside air intake #49  
Norm - I'll add some numbers that might help in your decision making.

I suspect that, depending on how airtight your house is, that adding a combustion air intake may not make any noticeable difference to the temperature.

When we moved into our house I was glad to see that it had separate combustion air intakes for both the wood stove and fireplace. Both units are in the centre of their rooms, so the ducting is under the floor. Intuitively I thought that outside air intakes would be a good thing. One year I was cleaning the rodent grill over the combustion air intakes when a stove fire was burning. I could barely notice any air movement. To confirm that there was some I draped a Kleenex over the grill and could see it suck in against the grill, but there wasn't much air movement. I've always wondered how much air was being used so when you posted your question it prompted me to do some research and some calculations. Details of my calculations below, but the summary is that the volume of air used for combustion is small compared to the normal air infiltration into many houses - so small that you might not notice any difference whether the combustion air goes directly into the stove or if it comes from the room and gets replaced by air leaking into the house. In the calculation that I did below, the "natural" infiltration of air into the house was 267 CFM and the wood stove combustion air usage was 10 CFM.

As others have mentioned, there are situations where outside combustion air helps to prevent backdrafting when the house is depressured by mechanical equipment. Depending on the type, the amount of air sucked out of a house by a clothes dryer or a kitchen exhaust fan can be 10-100 times as much as the natural draft that a wood stove chimney produces.

We also use a combination of hydronic heating (circulating warm water through in-floor tubes) and wood stove heating. If you're like me you've already given some thought to a way to heat the hydronic water with the wood stove. That would be the best way to distribute the stove's heat throughout the house.

Chris



Here are the details of my calculation, with the sources where I got the data, for anyone who wants to check my numbers. Don't be shy to let me know if I've screwed something up :)

- For this experiment we'll burn 100 lbs of wood in 24 hours.
- From what I've read, good wood combustion needs 10-12 lbs of air per lb of fuel, so we'd use 1100 lbs of air while burning those 100 lbs of wood.
(see slide 11 of the following):https://is.muni.cz/el/1423/podzim2013/MEB423/um/Wood_Lesson_02.pdf)
- 1100 lbs of air at 0.0765 lb/cubic foot takes up 14380 cubic feet at standard conditions
Density of air - Wikipedia
- So the flowrate of combustion air is 14380 cubic feet divided by 24 hours divided by 60 minutes per hour = 10 cubic feet per minute (CFM)

Hmm...we all know that a lot of extra air beyond what is needed for wood combustion goes flying up an open front fireplace. What happens with a wood stove? Probably some of that happens there too. There isn't a way to calculate that, though. It would have to be measured.

- I'll guess that your 2000 square foot house has 8 foot ceilings. That's 16000 cubic feet of indoor air volume.
- This is the tricky bit. How airtight is your house? The only way to know that is to do a "blower door" test, then extrapolate that higher than normal infiltration level down to what your house would experience for "natural" infiltration. Normal conditions depend on the temperature difference between inside and out, what the wind speed is, etc., so "natural" infiltration varies quite a bit. After reading a bunch of material on this and considering that this is a log house I'm going to use 1 air change per hour as the natural infiltration into the building. If you do some research on this you'll see numbers that vary quite a bit.
- 16000 cubic feet of air exchanging once per hour = 267 CFM

Chris

Great of you to double check and "do the math". Thank you.

The corroboration to your efforts was contained in the piece linked in post 27 of this thread.

It is sometimes assumed that taking air from outside through a duct saves energy because the stove doesn't use up indoor air and cause outdoor air to be drawn in through leaks to replace it. But the assumed heating deficit is so small as to be insignificant. The average air consumption of a modern wood heater is in the range of 10 - 25 cfm, which is very small compared to the natural leakage rate of houses. Building scientists say that the air in a house must be exchanged at least every three hours, or one-third of an airchange per hour, to control moisture from cooking and washing and to manage odors. One third of an air change in a 1500 square foot house is 4000 cubic feet, or 66 cfm. Note that this is the absolute minimum air change for healthy living and that most houses older than 20 years have natural leakage rates far higher than this in winter. So the air consumption of a wood stove is a tiny part of a much larger exchange of air between the house and outdoors.
[end quote]

Houses need to breath to keep them from getting stinky. Our two wood stoves make sure the bad air has a way out. I don't really care how it gets in as long as the entry is spread around (diffuse).

cheers
 
   / Outside air intake #50  
Not doubting anyone but i find it really hard to believe a exhaust fan on my kitchen stove will pull more air than a hot fire from my woodstove with a 8" exhaust pipe.
Just using public school logic...:)
 

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