Only SF would pull this stunt!

wasabi · Jun 26, 2002

This just in: The 9th circuit court (San Francisco) has ruled that the inclusion of the two words "under God" as included in our Pledge of Allegiance, now constitues a violation of the Constitution on the United States inasmuch as they fail to honor the separation of church and state. I RESENT THIS DEEPLY! Anyone else feel similarly? Write your officials!!!

Chuck52 · Jun 26, 2002

Re: Only SF would pull this!

No, I agree with it completely. In God We Trust should also be removed from our currency. I'm not going to go to war over it, however. A little more hypocrisy doesn't really get to me any more. I'd rather we pledge allegiance to the country than to the symbol though. Seems to me it might alleviate some problems.

Chuck

Golfgar4 · Jun 26, 2002

Re: Only SF would pull this!

Doug,

I don't know if I'd worry too much about it. After all, they ARE from California!! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Seriously - that really torques my jaws! /w3tcompact/icons/mad.gif I agree with you. But are they making some kind of recommendation to remove it, or what? Are they going to arrest anyone who doesn't stop saying it? I would expect that their decision only affects California, at least at this point in time. This'll get interesting! /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif

An aside - when you going to modify your signature to reflect your PT 2445?

wasabi · Jun 26, 2002

Re: Only SF would pull this!

My guess is that the pivotal lawsuit was brought by some group offended by kids saying the Pledge in school (as most of us Boomers grew up doing) ...the ruling may result in an amended verse or the elimination of the Pledge all together in schools.....or, per cowboydoc's recent thread, maybe they will require that the Pledge be simul-translated into Spanish!

An aside - when you going to modify your signature to reflect your PT 2445?

I've noticed that we TBNers can always count on you for levity when it is needed. Thanks for lowering my blood pressure just a bit by reminding me of what is really important /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I'll get right on it, Golfgar

Golfgar4 · Jun 26, 2002

Re: Only SF would pull this!

Always my pleasure to help out! /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif even if I didn't realize that I was helping!!/w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

rocky2 · Jun 26, 2002

Re: Only SF would pull this!

With their track record of fires and earthquakes, SF better not piss off God.

Anonymous Poster · Jun 26, 2002

Re: Only SF would pull this!

Right on... Rocky2.... With the fires, water shortages, electricity shortages, earthquakes (and mighty close to the ocean), mud slides, and now this. California had better see the light.

Harv · Jun 26, 2002

Re: Only SF would pull this!

I don't know if I'd worry too much about it. After all, they ARE from California!!

Yeah, we have our share of (but not a total monoploly on) weirdos here, but I gotta tell you that most of us Californy types are as shocked and outraged about this "decision" as the rest of the country.

I don't have real strong feelings over the issue itself, but with all the problems facing this country right now, I'd think the courts could find something better to focus their energies on. /w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif

the fires, water shortages, electricity shortages, earthquakes (and mighty close to the ocean), mud slides, and now this

Don't forget the drought, the floods, tornados, hurricanes, blizzards, and ... oh, wait! Those are more typical of other parts of the country. /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif (No, not trying to start anything. Just had to toss it in there.

)

God bless America. (Oops! I hear sirens...)

Charlie_Iliff · Jun 26, 2002

Doug:
Way back, when I recited the pledge every morning in school, it didn't contain the words "under God". According to one study, that was added in 1954, under pressure by the Knights of Columbus. More interesting to me is the observation that its original author didn't include the word "equality" with liberty and justice, because state education officials weren't really in favor of that. Seems the pledge is a bit more plastic than we may have learned as kids. See <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.vineyard.net/vineyard/history/pledge.htm>LINK</A>
So, how are the PT repairs going?

MossRoad · Jun 26, 2002

There are too many different religions to say whose god the pledge is referring to. Your god? My god? His god? Her god? Some people don't have a god and some people have more than one( I don't mean to offend anyone by using a small g in god because I am not talking about God the being, I am talking about the term god). The pledge of allegiance should be to the United States of America, period. Nationalism has a great place in my heart. I love this country and am happy to live here. However, from my observations, most nations that are based on religion are messed up. Keep government out of religion. Government is supposed to be there to provide basic services for all of the people and that is where it should stop.

I hope I didn't offend anyone; I would feel horrible if I did. That is just my opinion and yours might be different.

Best wishes to all TBNers /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

MossRoad · Jun 26, 2002

Re: Only SF would pull this!

God bless America. (Oops! I hear sirens...) 

In all seriousness, I would never get offended by someone praying for me or my country. Its always better to have someone wishing you well instead of the other way around. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

MossRoad · Jun 26, 2002

For what its worth, here's a part of the reasoning behind one of the judges.

"A profession that we are a nation `under God' is identical, for Establishment Clause purposes, to a profession that we are a nation `under Jesus,' a nation `under Vishnu,' a nation `under Zeus,' or a nation `under no god,' because none of these professions can be neutral with respect to religion," Judge Alfred T. Goodwin wrote for the three-judge panel.

wasabi · Jun 26, 2002

Re: Only SF would pull this!

With their track record of fires and earthquakes, SF better not piss off God. I think she may already have enough to be mad about if she wants reasons! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

Keep government out of religion... I respectfully submit that this is not a matter of religion as our gov and culture is tolerant of diversity, (as we should be)....rather, IMHO, this falls in the "spiritual" category. I think our founding forefathers referenced God (or god) in good faith in the founding of this fine country. Who are we to mess with their architecture when "it ain't broke"? Frankly, I think the casualness of our world's relations with our maker is at the root of most of the problems we face, from rude citizens (and non-citizens) etc.

I don't wish to attract arrows for these sentiments and, as MossRoad expressed appropriately, ultimately wish all well.

 So, how are the PT repairs going? Quite well, thank you Charlie. ( and thanks for returning the focus to tractoring) After the long. but otherwise uneventful haul from Illinois, and three hours tenative operating, I noticed serious leakage on the road when I looked back. I essentially spent the next four days of ownership (and half of my allotted vacation mountain time) up to my shoulders in a snake's nest of hydro hoses....finally slaying the proverbial dragon just in time to pull "Crusty" into the barn before leaving. It wasn't the first hose, wasn't the biggest one, wasn't the shortest one (and hardest one to put back on), it was the one underneath all of that!! Patched it all back together, gave it 15 gallons of oil /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif and have since scraped a mile and half driveway, moved dirt, rock, gravel and piled junk, etc.

Gotta say, the PT 2445 is everything I imagined it would be and more. I'm thrilled! It does everything I ask it to do, without complaint! I've got a few minor issues such as the auger I ordered not fitting the collet sp?, but haven't met a limit yet, tho it bogs a little if I put the treadle too far down when going up soime of my hills. (steep they are)

TedLynn · Jun 26, 2002

Our Constution guarantees our Freedom of Religon. It does not guarantee "Freedom FROM Religon". This is another bad judicial decision by a quirky court. It's really sad to see this great nation being flushed down the sewer! The response by the President and almost all members of Government has been great. Ted

wasabi · Jun 26, 2002

Concur!

wroughtn_harv · Jun 26, 2002

I respectfully disagree.

I think we should consider the fact that this great nation was founded by folks that understood that any one version of christianity in control of the government was bad for everyone.

All they knew was christianity. But they did know that no one particular version of christianity should get a stranglehold on politics. They knew this because everywhere they had seen this happen it had been a bad thing. It didn't matter if it was in Spain, France, England. You could have a universal god. You just couldn't have a religion god.

Today we aren't just christians. We have all kinds of faiths in all, any, and none gods. But just like it was bad to have one version of a christian god it is also bad to have one version of any god.

So the same principles that inspired our very wise and sophisticated forefathers is pertinent and appropriate today as evidenced by our wise judicial system.

As for just what the forefathers meant by some of their statements we do have to keep in mind they preached all men equal while giving some men no rights just because of the color of their skin.

A persons relationship with their god is a personal one. It is not unlike one's relationship with one's spouse. To insist that their spouse is the only perfect spouse would make them a fools pair a dice don't you agree? It'd make you wonder just who they were trying to convince and why.

wasabi · Jun 26, 2002

Your disagreeance with my concurance is perplexing. /w3tcompact/icons/hmm.gif

I assume we are talking about the same, one and only God, (Goddess, All that is, the one we call Great Spirit...the "In the Here and Now" type of God), as interpreted by each individual according to his or her own beliefs, right?

MossRoad · Jun 26, 2002

So far this thread is staying pretty civil. I'm proud to be part of this community /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

billboe · Jun 27, 2002

Re: Only SF would pull this!

I think our founding forefathers referenced God (or god) in good faith in the founding of this fine country. Who are we to mess with their architecture when "it ain't broke"?

Not sure if this is what you are referring to, but, our "founding forefathers" didn't have anything to do with the "under God" reference in the pledge of allegiance... That reference was added in 1954 (if my memory has the details correct) by the congress...

Personally, I'm with the keep it separate crowd!