Old House Plumbing Problem.

[buckeyefarmer]

1/4 turn ball valves are the best choice as you mentioned. How many folks here on TBN have been in a house 15-20 years and then had to try and shut off the toilet with that little oval handled multi-turn valve? It never works and is always frozen! :laughing:

Yep, I've replaced a few shutoff valves with ball valves recently.

 

[newbury]

1/4 turn ball valves are the best choice as you mentioned. How many folks here on TBN have been in a house 15-20 years and then had to try and shut off the toilet with that little oval handled multi-turn valve? It never works and is always frozen! :laughing:

All mine work. I put them in about 25 years ago and generally have to turn the ones on the toilets every 3 or 4 years to replace toilet flush parts.

 

[ultrarunner]

The problem here with conventional angle stops is they use a rubber washer and rubber stem packing...

They were OK until the water company switched to chloramine which eats up rubber... anyone that has fooled with a rubber washer exposed to chloramine around here knows it stains everything black as it disintegrates...

Now even the toilet flappers/ballcocks sold are listed as chloramine resistant... because that was another mess.

About 30 years ago the Plumbing supply got a line of 1/4 turn angle stops made in Italy... cost more than double what the old angle stops cost but boy were they nice...

Somewhere they started being made in China... now it is hit or miss as to quality...

At work, for the steam valves there are some American made ball valves I like a lot... installed by me in 1995 and still on the job...

I'm willing to pay more for quality since any problems down the road will most likely be my problem...

The house flippers around here buy cheap, cheap, cheap on anything that is hidden... so the low end market is alive and well...

PEX had never caught on here and code is probably why... one city says all domestic water must be copper... another forbids ABS for DWV above ground... another bans and ABS or PVC for under sink traps...

 

[MossRoad]

PEX had never caught on here and code is probably why... one city says all domestic water must be copper... another forbids ABS for DWV above ground... another bans and ABS or PVC for under sink traps...

I heard about a lot of strict code over in Chicago. I was told a lot of it was driven by union influence over lawmakers to ensure job security. Lots of do it yourself stuff was not legal. Don't know if its still like that over there or not.

 

[Bird]

We had a plumber replace both toilets in our house a couple of years ago. Without even asking, he replaced the shut off valves with the quarter turn valves.

 

[quicksandfarmer]

We had a plumber replace both toilets in our house a couple of years ago. Without even asking, he replaced the shut off valves with the quarter turn valves.

Probably for his own sanity while doing the job.

 

[/pine]

I've seen old lav. and W.C. stops so crusted from calcium and other minerals they would not move...have also wrung (soft pot metal and plastic) handles off frozen stops...Almost always included the cost of all new service stops for bath remodels etc...

I've also encountered sweated on stops that were so full of solder that they would not function properly...

 

[quicksandfarmer]

Lots of good advice here.

I definitely second adding shutoff valves before starting work. With PEX, if you have the tools (PEX cutter and crimper) it's a job that takes longer to get out the tools than it does to do it. Ball valve with PEX fittings is about $8 around here.

Those old faucets were simple. The threaded stem goes in and out when you turn the handle. When it goes in the washer presses against the seat and turns off the water. Both the washer and seat have to be in good shape in order for it to seal. The seat has to be smooth, clean, and square. A rough seat will ruin a new washer. I would recommend trying to clean the seat before replacing it.

There are a couple of things that can go wrong that make the faucet unfixable. A crack in the body. The threads on the stem can get stripped so that it no longer holds closed tightly. While you have it apart you should put plumber grease on the threads to keep them from wearing.

 

[N80]

Thanks for the continued advice guys. Time is tight but I will tackle the shut off valve this week. I have all the PEX tools. Since this line is copper (I have a mix in my basement) I will use the shark bite type attachments to go from copper to PEX. Expensive but foolproof and quick. Yes, I could just keep it all in copper but I'm not confident in my soldering skills in tight places with lots of wooden beams around. I will use an in-line ball valve.

Have found a wide range of quality in valves and even hose bibs at the big box stores...........mostly on the low end. I went through 2 or 3 cheap hose bibs that leaked when new. Now I buy the best quality valves and such that I can find.

One day my dream is to install a full PEX manifold in the basement. Will probably never happen but if I was starting from new that would be a no-brainer in my opinion for an old house that is _always_ going to have some sort of plumbing issue going on.

 

[N80]

PEX had never caught on here and code is probably why... one city says all domestic water must be copper... another forbids ABS for DWV above ground... another bans and ABS or PVC for under sink traps...

PEX is pretty much the standard out here. I installed all of the plumbing in my cabin kit myself. All PEX. Very easy. Almost 15 years and no problems associated with the PEX or my install and this was my first plumbing job ever.

My previous home was on a well. The water destroyed the copper lines in that house. Constantly wore through the copper, especially at the bends. Several major and expensive leaks and I had all PEX installed.

In my current house, the contractor who put on the master bath addition ran the supply and drain lines outside the house. The scoundrel did not insulate the box that they ran down the outside wall for the pipes. We normally don't get serious cold here but for the last 10 days we did not get much above freezing with nighttime temps in the single digits. We were out of town and the outside PEX line froze solid but did not burst. I was impressed. As soon as it warms up I will remove the 'box', insulate the pipes, add pipe warmer strips, put insulation in the box and then close it back in. I'm really not into DIY and usually don't enjoy it.............even though it seems I am constantly doing everything myself....but it is hard to get quality work these days and even cheap work is expensive.....and you have to pay for cheap work TWICE.

Fortunately, thanks to all the expertise here at TBN I can do stuff myself and do it right.

 

[ustmd]

PEX is pretty much the standard out here. I installed all of the plumbing in my cabin kit myself. All PEX. Very easy. Almost 15 years and no problems associated with the PEX or my install and this was my first plumbing job ever.

My previous home was on a well. The water destroyed the copper lines in that house. Constantly wore through the copper, especially at the bends. Several major and expensive leaks and I had all PEX installed.

In my current house, the contractor who put on the master bath addition ran the supply and drain lines outside the house. The scoundrel did not insulate the box that they ran down the outside wall for the pipes. We normally don't get serious cold here but for the last 10 days we did not get much above freezing with nighttime temps in the single digits. We were out of town and the outside PEX line froze solid but did not burst. I was impressed. As soon as it warms up I will remove the 'box', insulate the pipes, add pipe warmer strips, put insulation in the box and then close it back in. I'm really not into DIY and usually don't enjoy it.............even though it seems I am constantly doing everything myself....but it is hard to get quality work these days and even cheap work is expensive.....and you have to pay for cheap work TWICE.

Fortunately, thanks to all the expertise here at TBN I can do stuff myself and do it right.

Matt Risinger (a custom hombuilder in Austin) did a great video comparing PEX vs Copper vs PVC for freezing. Copper actually came out the worst:

Copper vs Pex vs SharkBite - Freeze Testing - YouTube

 

[ultrarunner]

Even in a mild climate I have had to repair ruptured exposed copper... mostly type M

So far... never had freeze damage to galvanized of copper L

Understand the strong point of PEX is not that it doesn't freeze but it is more forgiving to freeze conditions.

 

[N80]

Understand the strong point of PEX is not that it doesn't freeze but it is more forgiving to freeze conditions.

Yes, it probably freezes as readily as anything else but it expands without cracking. I'd guess repeated freezing and expanding would probably eventually lead to failure. Also, PEX hasn't been around all that long so who knows what issues might arise in the future.....but it has been around well over 20 years and I've had it in my home that long and in my cabin 15 years with no problems.

I'd guess that it causes cancer in California. But I'm in SC so that won't affect me. ;-)

 

[fried1765]

^^^Smart man... adding some full port quarter turn ball valves is cheap insurance...

One of the builders around here puts them in for the showers he installs... cuts and access behind the valve which is usually in a closet and then adds a metal access door... hot and cold have shut offs... all fixtures in the homes he builds can be shut off individually...

Nothing unique about that!
THAT has been the PROPER method for the last 100 years!

 

[N80]

Nothing unique about that!
THAT has been the PROPER method for the last 100 years!

Might be good. Might be proper. But it sure isn't code and I've never seen it in any house I've ever lived in. I wish it had been in every house I've ever lived in though.

Plumbing makes me insane in general. So much plumbing is installed as if it will NEVER fail. In other words, in walls, ceilings etc. and in places that are inaccessible and/or without access panels. Drive me nuts. All plumbing fails eventually, why have to destroy walls and ceilings to fix it. Granted, the problem is daunting in a 2 story house and most of my homes have been 2 story. But with a little clever design even those problems could be overcome. In my ideally engineered home..........which would be one story only, every inch of plumbing would be accessible without having to destroy something else or be a gymnast to get to.

Simple (large) access panels, smart locations, redundant shut off valves would all go a long way toward that goal.

 

[ultrarunner]

Nothing unique about that!
THAT has been the PROPER method for the last 100 years!

Never seen angle stops in tract home showers... never.

If the valve needs attention it means shutting down the water to structure...

The small in wall angle stops are not commonly stocked around here either.

The valves are usally 1/2 angle stop Unions...

https://media.statesupply.com/catal...8eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/l/n/ln1135_1.jpg

 

[/pine]

...One of the builders around here puts them in for the showers he installs... cuts and access behind the valve which is usually in a closet and then adds a metal access door...

FWIW...Shower valve access has been a standard building code requirement for as long as I can remember...

 

[fried1765]

Never seen angle stops in tract home showers... never.

If the valve needs attention it means shutting down the water to structure...

The small in wall angle stops are not commonly stocked around here either.

The valves are usally 1/2 angle stop Unions...

https://media.statesupply.com/catal...8eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/l/n/ln1135_1.jpg

I NEVER HAVE LIVED IN A "TRACT HOME"!

 

[tractorshopper]

One day my dream is to install a full PEX manifold in the basement. Will probably never happen but if I was starting from new that would be a no-brainer in my opinion for an old house that is _always_ going to have some sort of plumbing issue going on.

My brother and I are flipping an old house right now built in 1920's. We started with PEX right at the street with a new supply line to the house, then a 3/4" nice ball valve, then into a manifold. Everything for the kitchen, laundry, and bathrooms all come from this single manifold. In fact, the cold supply feeds right through the block, out to the hot water heater, then back from the water heater to the manifold. Really slick system and you can shut off each individual item right from the manifold. Also have the individual PEX shutoffs at each usage point, but it's redundant really.

This is the first time I've used a manifold of any type. If I were building my own home, I'd do this again for sure. Balanced water supply, etc.

We also ran the PEX where hard to access in the low points of the crawl space inside PVC as a conduit sleeve. This way, if the new home-owner ever has to replace a supply line to the kitchen per se, all they have to do is cut the old one, pull it out, and push the new one right back to the sink without ever crawling through a tight space or re-routing.

 

[N80]

My brother and I are flipping an old house right now built in 1920's. We started with PEX right at the street with a new supply line to the house, then a 3/4" nice ball valve, then into a manifold. Everything for the kitchen, laundry, and bathrooms all come from this single manifold. In fact, the cold supply feeds right through the block, out to the hot water heater, then back from the water heater to the manifold. Really slick system and you can shut off each individual item right from the manifold. Also have the individual PEX shutoffs at each usage point, but it's redundant really.

This is the first time I've used a manifold of any type. If I were building my own home, I'd do this again for sure. Balanced water supply, etc.

We also ran the PEX where hard to access in the low points of the crawl space inside PVC as a conduit sleeve. This way, if the new home-owner ever has to replace a supply line to the kitchen per se, all they have to do is cut the old one, pull it out, and push the new one right back to the sink without ever crawling through a tight space or re-routing.

Nice work!