No Guts HI gear HST

Steve_Miller · Nov 26, 2004

Robert,

I've been reading this topic with great interest and I honestly believe you have a problem. Everyone is talking about the hydro popping off or not set high enough. I'm not an expert in hydraulics by any means but inside this magic box (transmission/hydro pump/hydro motor) there is a hydraulic motor that has a swash plate (I'm assuming it works this way), a hydraulic pump (to provide flow), a charge pressure to control the swash) and a relief valve to vent pressure when it becomes too great. This swash plate is what I think you have the problem with. There should be a charge pressure controlling this plate, it may not be set correctly. I may be way off base here but is it something that could be looked at. If so I hope it helps, if not I've prolonged this thread by another post.

Steve

P.S. When I had a CK20HST at my house for a test drive I tried a few things with it. One thing was driving into a pile of loam to get a bucket full and the little beast would not even attempt to spin the tires, it just sat there dumbfounded the same as me. No matter where I had the hydro pedal it would not push. For comparisons sake I did the same for the TC24DA I tried and it did the same thing, as far as the B7610, it crawled right into the pile until it couldn't get any more in the bucket and it would have buried itself spinning the tires if I would have let it. This is when I decided I was going to stick with a gear version. I bought the Kioti over the others on price and features which the NH & Kubota could not match the Kioti on.

getut · Nov 26, 2004

More testing to come tomorrow.

I am running a little over my 50 hour fluids change. I'm at 68 hours.... I loaned it to a Church for hay rides over halloween and it was at like 56 hours then. Didn't have time to change anything before it went... then my newest kid was born 3 weeks ago, so finally got a chance to change ALL the fluids and filters tonight. Only got to run it about 30 minutes under no load just to check for leaks.

Tomorrow I am having 8 tons of crush-n-run brought in on a dump truck and piled in front of my barn. I sure hope the fluids and filter change makes a tremendous difference in power. I'll be using the box blade for many hours tomorrow grading off an area that is holding water and then spreading the crush-n-run over the top of that.

I hope, I hope, I hope.

mathey · Nov 26, 2004

OK, I just completed the infamous "CK20 2x4 HI-RANGE TEST"

SUBJECT VEHICLE: CK20HST, 320 hours, FEL on (54" material bucket), PHD on (no auger on), Industrial tires inflated to recomended pressures

TEST CONDITIONS: night-time, 37 deg F, 5 min engine warm up, on dry flat pavement. Got off after each try to place boards up against rear treads on both sides

2WD, 1000 RPM: Climbed over board, albeit slowly
2WD, 1500 RPM: Climbed over board without much engine "strain"
2WD, 2000 RPM: Climbed over board with ease

4WD, 1000 RPM: Climbed over board without much engine "strain"

I stopped there...(hey, I didn't put a jacket on, I was cold!, not to mention what the neighbors must've thought... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

OTHER NOTES: I believe I was one of the first 2-3 to actually take delivery of a CK20 here on TBN, not sure what that means exactly, other than the build date. Mine would have been built in Feb 2003 or so.

I consider 1000 RPM basically idle. I do most work in both hi and lo ranges at between 2000 and 2500 RPM.

CONCLUSION: I haven't a clue! Could be a few isolated cases. Could be a simple change in suppliers of parts used in the HST assembly.

With my CK, I mow (48" rotary) all the time in hi range, without effort. I use hi-range for a lot of things that I do, but when the going gets tough, I use low-range, that's why its there. I have been extremely satisfied with my CK for almost 2 years now, it's done everything I've asked and then some. Is it for everyone? No. Today I got my FIL's TC25 front wheel stuck in a crater shaped hole about 8" deep...hi-range wouldn't pull it out, mid range wouldn't pull it out, but it went out in low range. Go figure...

Bob_Skurka · Nov 26, 2004

mathey, this is good news indeed. In my mind the conclusion is that Getut has an isolated problem. He may not be the only one with it, but it is not a design issue and it is not systemic to all CK20HSTs. So while it doesn't solve Getut's problem, it does give him some evidence that his has a problem, and that can be shown to the Kioti rep who inspects his tractor.

lcisled · Nov 27, 2004

Well, Cdt80 and I could not take it any more and had to find out ourselves. We had two CK20's - One with 137 hours and one with 32. Both HST.

It had snowed this AM so you can about figure the temp. On the high hour machine we started it up and put the 4x4 behind the tire-no warm-up. Higher RPM - not max. Right up and over - 2x4 or 4x4. Confidence reinforced. Lower hour machine had warm up time and went right over as well. Decided to try a 6x6 test. Max RPM. Once again, right over. The tractor knew it was there, but once again, it went over.

So have we proved anything-only to ourselves. We can understand the frustration that Getut has with a machine that has no power. We no longer have to wonder as our machines have what they say they have.

I think this is old news by now, but at least we believe this problem is isolated and not the norm. By reading through this thread today we see we are not the only ones who have done the test and had positive results.

Good luck guys figuring out what is causing your tractors to have inadequate power. I am interested in what the solution will be.

getut · Nov 27, 2004

Well I put about 5 hours on mine today after the fluids and filter changes.

I can say I had mixed success. The short story... it improved. It will go over a 4x4 now, but struggles greatly to pop up on top. The long story is that I still don't think it is right. It was too wet to mess with the crush-n-run that I had hauled in today, but perfect to burn my pile that has been waiting without risk of setting the rest of my pasture on fire. I've been working the pile so much getting it ready that there is almost a moat around the pile where all the vegetation is wore off and water is standing. A good 4" deep swampy mud pit. While turning the pile a couple of times I could not push the FEL in very deep and stalled the HST with no tire spin what so ever even in the extremely soft muck. Working back and forth with different pedal positions and input levels still yielded no push into the pile and an unwillingness to even turn the tires once under a little strain.

Oh well. Guess I'm back to waiting on Kioti to get back with me.

KiotiJohn · Nov 28, 2004

Well, I've run through this whole thread, and I finally can not stand by without a reply. Getut, you mentioned a part of one of my PMs to you, but you failed to include the most important part of that PM in which I told you what the engineering manager at Kioti told me to tell you. Here is a copy/paste of that part of the PM from me to you.
( I did have a conversation with the Kioti Engineering Manager yesterday about this. He stated that on some of the CK20s, the plug in the relief valve has a spring that sometimes hangs up allowing fluid to bypass. In some cases, only replacing the plug repairs the problem. Sometimes, the whole valve has needed to be replaced. I suppose this is a problem that can happen intermittently as well, but I'm not sure. )
You have continued to go on and on about this problem, but it seems you have not pursued the repair recommended to you. This makes me really wonder what your objectives are in this. Why have you not addressed the problem I told you about? Why have you not mentioned it in any of these threads? I gave you a valid answer, and it has been completely and utterly ignored. I begin to wonder if you even own a CK20. Can anyone really wonder why I would feel this way? You have espoused a lot of bad publicity for this tractor without ever having mentioned that you attempted the fix stated by the engineering manager.
I'm afraid this reply is going to sound a lot harsher than it's meant to, but I believe I make a valid point in your ommission of my statements to you in the PM. You and Bob both danced all around the spring issue, and you still didn't mention what I told you. I don't get it.
As a matter of fact, I would be willing to come to NC and check out your tractor to compare it to what I know it should be doing. If you want, contact me at mexjohn@bellsouth.net and I'll come check it out. Or, I can speak with someone at Kioti to see if I can get someone there to help you. It's up to you. John

ccdck20hst · Nov 28, 2004

KiotiJohn, Thank you for this informative and helpful reply on this thread. I had my CK20HST TLB delivered in May 2004 and I have read all the helpful threads I could on this model - your posts have always helped me to learn more about the tractor. As a new first time owner of a TLB I have a lot to learn! I do not think my unit has this problem but if it developes I want to know how to diagnose it. There are some subtle things that must be remembered with the hydraulics like checking the fluid level with the FEL bucket on the groud fully retracted and with the hoe bucktet on the ground all cylinders in retracted position (owner manuals). Thanks again for this emperical data on the spring in the plug in the relief valve. Charlie

Bob_Skurka · Nov 28, 2004

Doccruz wrote: I didnt realize such a sore spot existed about the HST. I originally purchased the gear model because the dealer stated it had a live PTO. But it didnt and he substituted it with a HST model. I have a 54 inch snowblower so live is a must. I am having all the HST problems that GETUT is having. I know how he feels. My Koiti dealer is primarily a snowmobile dealer. If I want any real HST service I wouldnt know where to go. This should be a recall, or modification fix by Kioti. 

Doccruz, as you are the one who started this thread, and as you have identical problems to Getut, then perhaps you should contact Kioti directly. KiotiJohn knows some of the folks at Kioti, if you don't know where to turn then maybe he can help you.

cdt80 · Nov 28, 2004

Thank You KiotiJohn! I have only responded a couple of times on this forum and after all this I had made up my mind I was NEVER doing it again.
However, I would like to add one more thing:
No matter what brand of tractor (or any peice of equipment for that matter) you own there is going to be maintainence/repairs. Those that approach this fact realistically will have much success and enjoyment. I am not pointing fingers and this is strictly hypothetical /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif but constant negative attitude or looking to stir up trouble doesn't really seem to accomplish much.
Thanks KiotiJohn for being a great "go to" guy on this forum!

shoppintractors · Nov 28, 2004

cdt80, A little late but "Welcome to TBN".

Thank you for posting. Your contributions and observations are appreciated. I hope your able to grow more comfortable here as time goes on and continue to contribute.

Don

DK35vince · Nov 28, 2004

( Oh well. Guess I'm back to waiting on Kioti to get back with me. )

According to John's post it sounds like you aready have the answer to what the problem most likely is.
Why not just have the dealer replace those parts and fix it /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

GerardC · Nov 28, 2004

According to John's post it sounds like you aready have the answer to what the problem most likely is.
Why not just have the dealer replace those parts and fix it


If anything, it sure sounds like a GOOD PLACE TO START /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif. Gerard

Bob_Skurka · Nov 28, 2004

Vince wrote: According to John's post it sounds like you aready have the answer to what the problem most likely is.
Why not just have the dealer replace those parts and fix it 

Gerard wrote: If anything, it sure sounds like a GOOD PLACE TO START 

Well folks, at the risk of starting up some grief, which I am NOT intending to do. I believe that if you go back far enough in this thread you will find that Getut effectively did that. While maybe he did not specifically address the issue in the way that John wrote, he did talk to the dealer about this issue (or at least is sounds like he did) if you read his words below. It was actually the dealership that told Getut about the spring problem. Also, he said that Kioti directed the testing.

Getut wrote: I brought it to them (the dealership) after they told me about the possible spring problem. They called me a week later and told me it was ready, but that they didn't do anything to it. It tested fine on the pressure at the 4 points on the HST unit they were instructed to test (from Kioti).

KiotiJohn · Nov 28, 2004

Bob, I don't see any need for you to be getut's representative in this matter. My post was directed at him, and he knows that I sent this PM to him AFTER he had done this with the dealer. In a subsequent PM, I also said this to him, copy/pasted from the PM:
( It appears to me that your dealer is the culprit here, not willing to go the extra mile to fix the problem. John )
Simply testing the tractor at a standstill, which I suspect was the case, may not have caused the spring problem to manifest. At the very least, the dealer should replace the plug, and if that doesn't change the situation, then the complete relief valve should be replaced.
I think you should give getut a chance to be the one to answer as he knows the facts of it. I realize that you have continually said the problem is probably isolated, and I believe that is the case, but this situation has gone on and on, with a lot of disparaging remarks made about the model and I believe that if I were the one dealing with it, I would have taken care of it and had it over with without having to constantly keep up a bashing campaign which unjustly damns the other CK20's which don't suffer the same problem. John

GerardC · Nov 28, 2004

( Bob, I don't see any need for you to be getut's representative in this matter. My post was directed at him, and he knows that I sent this PM to him AFTER he had done this with the dealer. In a subsequent PM, I also said this to him, copy/pasted from the PM:
( It appears to me that your dealer is the culprit here, not willing to go the extra mile to fix the problem. John )
Simply testing the tractor at a standstill, which I suspect was the case, may not have caused the spring problem to manifest. At the very least, the dealer should replace the plug, and if that doesn't change the situation, then the complete relief valve should be replaced.
I think you should give getut a chance to be the one to answer as he knows the facts of it. I realize that you have continually said the problem is probably isolated, and I believe that is the case, but this situation has gone on and on, with a lot of disparaging remarks made about the model and I believe that if I were the one dealing with it, I would have taken care of it and had it over with without having to constantly keep up a bashing campaign which unjustly damns the other CK20's which don't suffer the same problem. John )

 I totally agree! Gerard

Bob_Skurka · Nov 28, 2004

John, I'm just trying to provide a little balance because after your post (which I did not reply to) a couple other guys pointed out essentially the same thing. So all of a sudden it seemed like Getut has not tried, and has not addressed this particular issue. Yet, at least on some level, he has talked to the dealer about exactly this issue because the dealer tested it.

I do agree with you that he has a dealer issue, that is one of the reasons I really think having a sound, established, quality dealer is necessary. He has obviously gotten fed up with the dealer, but I really do think he is waiting for a response from a Kioti rep, and apparently he has more patience than I do because he has been waiting for 4 or 5 weeks since they promised to come out there. I'd have been screaming bloody murder by now.

All that said, it seems that Getut's problem, while probably fairly rare, is also something that a couple other folks seem to have. (Doccruz, Kkid [on a demo] & whenley [also on a demo]) Hopefully they won't have to go through the frustration that Getut is going through.

I just wish all dealers were as good as Jon DePratt, who took time to go out and test the tractors in his parking lot.

We should all remember that Getut did NOT start this thread. And that on the first 2 pages of the thread 3 other people talked about this issue on tractors they drove. 2 of them on dealers lots. I simply don't think Getut should get heat for having a problem, if we chase away people who have problems when they voice them the likelyhood is they will sell their tractors as junk and spread the word where they live that the brand is garbage. If we help them out, then it is likely that a solution will be found, the tractor will be fixed, and they will become goodwill ambassadors for the brand.

KiotiJohn · Nov 28, 2004

( I simply don't think Getut should get heat for having a problem, if we chase away people who have problems when they voice them the likelyhood is they will sell their tractors as junk and spread the word where they live that the brand is garbage. If we help them out, then it is likely that a solution will be found, the tractor will be fixed, and they will become goodwill ambassadors for the brand.)
Who said anything about chasing anyone away? I simply stated that I had addressed this with getut. Not one of the responses in this whole thread has been any help to him. Taking his dealer to task and having the necessary parts changed out would have been the help. I doubt seriously that he needs you or anyone else to defend him in this forum, but I understand your need to jump in there. John

Dargo · Nov 28, 2004

I've been on the sideline watching this thread with some interest. I'll readily admit that when I looked at and drove a Kioti earlier this year I was less than impressed with the tractor and the dealer. The dealer was selling it as a cheaper Kubota "knock off". There were no "selling points" given to me as to why I should buy Kioti other than price. When I asked about parts, the dealer said that he should be able to get parts from other dealers or get them ordered when needed. I just didn't get the feeling of quality, so I walked.

TBN was the only reason I even considered and drove the Kioti, because my impression was that they were a cheap Kubota knock off. The only close dealer that carried them went out of business a couple of years ago. Now, in my case, I have a dealer who is rather ambivalent towards them and sells on price alone. It is interesting to see how someone who purchased one is taken care of by their dealer and then, ultimately, by Kioti.

Any manufacturer can and will have some problems. It is the manufacturer and the dealers what make much of the difference if the product itself is of reasonable quality. I'm curious as to how this plays out. If a tractor in the hp range we are talking about has consistent problems mentioned here and the manufacturer doesn't step up, it makes up my mind as to whether to consider this make in the future. Hopefully Kioti is here for the long run and they make good on this issue.