New GC1720 Loud Drive

[ray66v]

? did you ever have an engine that was run without any oil in the crank case and survive without any repairs like my tractor? That tractor is still running and its been about 13 years and used every year.

Yes.

Instead of trying to educate me, spend some time trying to educating yourself. Compare the technical specifications of a given synthetic oil, and a similar viscosity, quality conventional oil. This data is pretty readily available on the internet. Go line by line down the sheet, and compare each test. You will not find significant performance differences, in ANY ASPECT, until you get to extreme temperatures. And, unlike your statements, and references to scientific evidence, that is a fact.

The things you believe were somewhat true in 1985. But, it's not 1985 anymore. The quality of conventional oil has caught up. Now, you need to catch up too.

 

[bfloyd4445]

Yes.

Instead of trying to educate me, spend some time trying to educating yourself. Compare the technical specifications of a given synthetic oil, and a similar viscosity, quality conventional oil. This data is pretty readily available on the internet. Go line by line down the sheet, and compare each test. You will not find significant performance differences, in ANY ASPECT, until you get to extreme temperatures. And, unlike your statements, and references to scientific evidence, that is a fact.

The things you believe were somewhat true in 1985. But, it's not 1985 anymore. The quality of conventional oil has caught up. Now, you need to catch up too.

I have done all that and as i mentioned earlier the numbers are close but the fact is synthetic far outperforms conventioal in extreme temperatures. And there is the living proof of my old tractor still working every year over ten years past being run without any oil in the crank case at all. I don't believe it would still be alive if i had used conventional oil do you?

You are correct in that oils have greatly improved they had to because of the stiff competition from synthetics. The gap is much smaller than it was in the eighties but there still is a gap in favor of syn lubricants. It is still cheap insurance

 

[DMW]

I have done all that and as i mentioned earlier the numbers are close but the fact is synthetic far outperforms conventional in extreme temperatures. And there is the living proof of my old tractor still working every year over ten years past being run without any oil in the crank case at all. I don't believe it would still be alive if i had used conventional oil do you?

Probably more due to regular oil changes. Remember the old "Slick 50" commercials?

Synthetic oils are a refiners flagship. The best oil, with the best additive package, thus the highest price. Full syns (engine/hydro/front axle) have probably cost me an extra $25/year. The Viscosity index (VI) of the syns is inherent in the oil, not part of the additive package that dissipates with use. The hotter running SCUTs benefit from this. Water dispersants are lacking in lower quality oils which can be problematic for most owners who operate their tractor for a couple hours, then put away until the next weekend. This cannot be found on a data sheet. I don't treat it as insurance, but maintaining my investment in a fairly expensive piece of machinery. Same as washing and waxing the GC, it's not about making it look good, it's the best way I've found of doing a thorough visual inspection

Cheers
Dennis

 

[ray66v]

I have done all that and as i mentioned earlier the numbers are close but the fact is synthetic far outperforms conventioal in extreme temperatures.

And, the fact is, that I said, more than once, synthetic oil has a performance advantage in extreme temps. And, also have I said it's also got the advantage, if you want longer drain intervals.". Yet, you have spent how long now, telling me I'm wrong?

No, I don't accept your tractor as proof of anything, because as I've said four times now, I have seen similar things happen with conventional oil. That's all known as anecdotal evidence. It is not scientific proof of anything.

 

[AxleHub]

It would seem that posters have gotten "out in the weeds" compared to the topic of this thread.

1st off, hydraulic fluid for the drive process is a much different issue than engine oil for the engine.

When it comes to Diesel engine oil, Dino oil products can work perfectly fine in heat or cold. Myself I've always avoided Pennsylvania oil sourced products because of a high wax content . . true for gas or diesel situations, as wax content is a sludge creator. That's why I always have preferred Texas based Dino oils for engines since the early 70s. And the idea that synthetics allow a cold blooded engine to operate when they won't with Dino oil is just silly. . Because you use engine block heater in truly cold conditions regardless. There is no "good" reason a modern Massey SCUT tractor can't be fully and completely operational at 0 F or below except operator unpreparedness.

But diesel engine oil is designed differently from normal engine oils. It does all the same functions as normal engine oils plus it is designed to capture suet created in the diesel process. . . which is why tractor oil looks "dirty" quickly after being used. And a properly maintained Iseki 3 cylinder 5 HP diesel engine should run cool using Dino or synthetic.

But the topic of this thread is hydraulic whine on this same type of SCUT. . . the gc1700 series. And that means hydraulic fluid or gear oils and transmission stresses. I recall reading the OP writing that he noticed the whine more in 4wd than he did in 2wd and in low peed rather than high speed.

So let's consided that the combination of low sped and 4wd would indicate that the tractor may be operating more in those periods. . . on hills or slopes because it wouldn't be flat land pulling or flat land fel work as a norm because the 4wd and low gear combination would indicate traction situations and gravity issues combined.

And true to life, if I'm mowing on my steeper hills with now 3pt or fel. . . I do hear a small amount of whine because it's low speed and 4wd, and mowing is not heavy weight based.

So here are a couple suggestions for the OP to consider. Are you using Permatran hydraulic fluid in your hydraulic drive and is it clean in color and properly filled. ? If the answer is no to any one of those specific conditions . . . hat could cause louder whine. I'm not saying Permatran is the only choice to use but it's a higher unity than most of the "store brands" and it's much cheaper than Kubota's UDT product.

But let's say your answer is "yes" to all parts of my question. I would likely believe the fluid in your front axle us either suspect quality or is contaminated or low. I listed the hydro 1st, but Know I noticed difference when I changed my front axle fluid. Did you know Permatran for the GC products comes in 3 different formulations in the last 4 years?

Regular Permatran 821xl was a non-synthetic product 4 years go and then it startedbeing a blended product. Then about 1 year ago they came out with a full synthetic version in addition to the blended product. School depending on your hydro fluids age you may have non synthetic or blended or if you just grabbed any old bucket in the let year you could have blended or the second choice of extended.

But front axle drive is different than the normal hydraulic drive, because it is a much more confined space and just a pile of small fine gearing with a far smaller quantity of fluid in that era. In 4wd the front axle assist is quite active . . . especially on hills . So it puts more strain on the hydro. And any hydro under strain will be louder in that sized unit.

Also if you're lugging around a backhoe attachment under those same conditions that increases load. I'm not saying load of the amount is harmful. . I'm saying clean quality fluid is helpful under under load. When I mow my lawn filled with steep slopes I only have my mom elk and a small amount of weight on my rear weight bracket (bracket ND limited weights equals 150 pounds).

Jmho and on topic

 

[sd455dan]

you are wrong bearing temperatures tend to be high in all engines and higher < 400-900 F.> at low rpm because there is less oil flow.

Are you serious? All engines?
Sorry -I don't buy that for a second .

If oil was being pulled from the sump and pumped - exiting the engine block at temps near the lower # posted your oil filter would probably burn the paint off.

Any normal engine that has an oil pump producing adequate pressure (even at low RPM's ) should keep the bearings afloat- i.e. oil pressure is greater than the mechanical forces trying to make the bearing and journal contact or slide against each other, there is a formula and graphs for this and it is dependent on journal diameter and rpms which will give the oil pressure required to maintain a zero contact film barrier between the bearing and journal.

the saying that about 90% of engine wear occurs at startup- now that I could believe.

Turbo bearings and oil that are subject to engine full load continuously and then shut off without an idle cool down I would buy the temps listed causing coking, but that heat is mainly due to the diesels turbo exhaust temps at high boost
of course this is jmo YMMV

Sorry for the thread detour - back to whether the Op's hydro trans amount of whine is normal.

 

[atsah]

My brother has a Ford 7710 that has 7000 hours on the clock, runs better than my 2014, conventional 15-40 all it's life, he runs a big mower conditioner and a big square baler with a kicker and big wagon behind it, he also runs a 9ft snowblower with it, winter it runs in -10F and in summer it runs in 90F heat a lot and never had an oil related problem..

I do use synthetic in my tractor and vehicles but I don't know that it's that much better, I doubt that it is, who knows.. Prices have come down on the synthetic stuff so I'll stick with it I guess..

 

[Fiziksgeek]

If the OP comes back, here are my data points.

My previous GC2400 had almost no hydro whine in high or low. My current GC1720 has some hydro whine in low, almost none in high. I only used Permatran from the dealer in the GC2400, and only had it long enough to go through the first hydro fluid change. In my GC1720 I changed to Amsoil at 50 hours. I believe I noticed a tiny bit less hydro whine in low, but hard to tell if there was really any difference, or if I was just imagining it...

 

[bfloyd4445]

Probably more due to regular oil changes. Remember the old "Slick 50" commercials?

Synthetic oils are a refiners flagship. The best oil, with the best additive package, thus the highest price. Full syns (engine/hydro/front axle) have probably cost me an extra $25/year. The Viscosity index (VI) of the syns is inherent in the oil, not part of the additive package that dissipates with use. The hotter running SCUTs benefit from this. Water dispersants are lacking in lower quality oils which can be problematic for most owners who operate their tractor for a couple hours, then put away until the next weekend. This cannot be found on a data sheet. I don't treat it as insurance, but maintaining my investment in a fairly expensive piece of machinery. Same as washing and waxing the GC, it's not about making it look good, it's the best way I've found of doing a thorough visual inspection

Cheers
Dennis

chuckle.... but in the case of my old tractor there was no oil in the crankcase. I had read claims from syn producers that the oil bonds to the metal and lubricates at times when there is no oil film like at startup etc. and never really put much stock in that untill my old tractor experience. This spring i noticed a puff of smoke on startup and figured it was time to rebuild her so I called a guy in Medford or. that rebuilds old tractors and he said i should change the oil first so i did. I had run out of delco 10-40 diesel truck oil and amsoil marine diesel oil so i had filled it with mobil 1 on the last oil change this spring. Well when i changed it back to the heavy truck syn oil she ran like always no smoke and quiet as an eggbeater as always. Taught me that mobil one is not a good oil for diesel engines even though they claim it is.

You made a good point regarding the additive package and point out that syn was the best oil produced something i never mentioned because that seemed obvious. However, with most people today taking one liners off the net or tv as gospel it pays to include the obvious in any discussion.

Thanks again for the clarification

 

[atsah]

Mobil 1 is as good as any other synthetic oil.

 

[bfloyd4445]

Mobil 1 is as good as any other synthetic oil.

.

I've used it for years in cars but it isnt good for D's even the m1 turbo d oil as thats what i had in the tractor one time for about a week. My favorite is amsoil marine diesel oil. Its formulated for heavy duty use but it has one issue in extreme cold you need a block heater or your truck is hard to start. The reason in my opinion for this is that it is much thicker to compensate for engines that tend to water down the oil with fuel like PS 6.0's are supposed to do. I'm back to amsoils marine diesel in the old tractor she loves it.

 

[ray66v]

In my GC1720 I changed to Amsoil at 50 hours. I believe I noticed a tiny bit less hydro whine in low, but hard to tell if there was really any difference, or if I was just imagining it...

Exactly. If someone strongly wants to believe something, when the test is only based on what you think, it's easy to lose objectivity,

These are all the same drives, most of them switched at the same interval. If the synthetic oil had a significant affect hydro whine, it would do it every time. Not just on some.

 

[AxleHub]

I find it interesting that posters continue to want to debate choices of synthetic engine oil or Dino ENGINE oil but don't want to look what the OP started out with as a concern. . . Hydro whine.

Recently once again I correlated the specifics the OP stated to a possibility that the front axle fluid either needed changing, or was low, or had some inferior product fluid in it. My point is whether the front axle had good quality Dino or synthetic would make little difference compared to dirty front axle fluid or low front axle fluid are very poor quality fluid.

The type of fluid is much less important than the Condition of the fluid or it's volume. But no one bothers to comment on such points made. Everybody just like to argue with no resultant benefits?

ENGINE oil doesn't relate to hydro whine. But the OP has quite a new gc1720 . . . any one but me recognize new units typically don't get this front ale fluid checked till a service timeframe???

Jmho

 

[cdaigle430]

Just install a radio and play it loud LOL

 

[DMW]

I wonder if the OP realized that the parking brake had been engaged?

 

[fxdb96]

If the OP comes back, here are my data points.

My previous GC2400 had almost no hydro whine in high or low. My current GC1720 has some hydro whine in low, almost none in high. I only used Permatran from the dealer in the GC2400, and only had it long enough to go through the first hydro fluid change. In my GC1720 I changed to Amsoil at 50 hours. I believe I noticed a tiny bit less hydro whine in low, but hard to tell if there was really any difference, or if I was just imagining it...

Thank you. I had the same experience with my 1710 being quieter than my new 1720. Ive always used permatran at or before the service intervals.

 

[fxdb96]

I wonder if the OP realized that the parking brake had been engaged?

Haha anyone can make mistakes but not this time

 

[fxdb96]

I find it interesting that posters continue to want to debate choices of synthetic engine oil or Dino ENGINE oil but don't want to look what the OP started out with as a concern. . . Hydro whine.

Recently once again I correlated the specifics the OP stated to a possibility that the front axle fluid either needed changing, or was low, or had some inferior product fluid in it. My point is whether the front axle had good quality Dino or synthetic would make little difference compared to dirty front axle fluid or low front axle fluid are very poor quality fluid.

The type of fluid is much less important than the Condition of the fluid or it's volume. But no one bothers to comment on such points made. Everybody just like to argue with no resultant benefits?

ENGINE oil doesn't relate to hydro whine. But the OP has quite a new gc1720 . . . any one but me recognize new units typically don't get this front ale fluid checked till a service timeframe???

Jmho

Yes axlehub i think this thread is off the rails.. I had 250 hrs on my 1710 when i sold it. Always serviced at the intervals by myself and always agco filters and permatran. Yes i noticed the permatran evolution as well. Just did the 50 hr service on my 1720 and it is still much noisier than my 1710 in low range. Definitely hydro whine and not the front axle. Im used to it at this point and with 50 hrs i have confidence in the machine so all is well.

 

[DMW]

Haha anyone can make mistakes but not this time

Just seeing if you were still around.

 

[bfloyd4445]

I find it interesting that posters continue to want to debate choices of synthetic engine oil or Dino ENGINE oil but don't want to look what the OP started out with as a concern. . . Hydro whine.

Recently once again I correlated the specifics the OP stated to a possibility that the front axle fluid either needed changing, or was low, or had some inferior product fluid in it. My point is whether the front axle had good quality Dino or synthetic would make little difference compared to dirty front axle fluid or low front axle fluid are very poor quality fluid.

The type of fluid is much less important than the Condition of the fluid or it's volume. But no one bothers to comment on such points made. Everybody just like to argue with no resultant benefits?

ENGINE oil doesn't relate to hydro whine. But the OP has quite a new gc1720 . . . any one but me recognize new units typically don't get this front ale fluid checked till a service timeframe???

Jmho

good point. A new tractor can be expected to sound different untill after she fully breaks in just like my wife, and now she can be really LOUD but still works.