Ned help with another well/pump

tuerdon · Jul 4, 2012

sure sounds like the pump is going dry, watch that, it will burn out quite quickly. Just a thought, if you have another water supply and can direct it to the pipe you might be able to run water down the pipe and see if it works OK with a extra supply of water. There must be a way to pull the pump out of the casing otherwise it's a dead end waiting to happen.

Qapla · Jul 5, 2012

A well/pump company could easily pull the pump ... I said I have no way of pulling the pump.

In fact, if they do put in a new well the idea is to pull this pump and put it down the new well to save some cost. I will also be the one tying the new well into the existing mainline and connecting it to power because it will be less expensive to the apartments then having the well company do it.

Thanks for all the replies. I will tell the owner today that he still needs a new well

bullockcm · Jul 6, 2012

I know you talked to the owner yesterday but here is some data if you need further justification. BTW, I belive the surging is the result of the well running out of water. Using the information you gave, well diameter = 4", pump at 63'. I will ask here, are you sure the well is only 4" bore, I am actually surpised a 5HP pump fits in a 4" bore well but I know things do differ greatly in different areas of the country. Anyway using the 4" and 63' I come up with 9495 in^3 of area which is best case since I doubt the well casing is ever full to the top. That area converts to 41 gals. Best case scenerio, you are pumping the water down to the pump level in slightly more than a minute. This of course ignores the well recovery rate. The fact water is still being pumped even with surging suggests the recovery rate must be quite high.

Someone mentioned it prior but the other option to drilling a new well would be to see if the pump could be lowered in the current well. Here in western NY we always kept pumps at least 3' above the bottom of the well, that may or may not be applicable in FL.

Qapla · Jul 6, 2012

bullockcm said:
... I will ask here, are you sure the well is only 4" bore, I am actually surprised a 5HP pump fits in a 4" bore well but I know things do differ greatly in different areas of the country....

Yes, it is a 4" well. Here is a link to Meyers Pumps - All these pumps are for 4" well and range from 1/2 - 10 HP (the actual diameter of the pump is 3 3/4" ... but they are a bit heavy and awkward to move around ... some of the specs - LENGTH: 21-3/4" to 71-5/8" WEIGHT: 23 to 98 lbs DISCHARGE: 304 Stainless Steel, 1-1/4" on 5, 10, and 16 GPM, 1-1/2" on 25 GPM, 2" on 40 & 75 GPM). I have recently installed a 1 1/2HP @ 20GPM and a 2HP @ 35GPM pump for this same owner at a couple other properties. This particular property has a 5HP pump that should do about 55GPM but the best I have ever been able to get is about 35GPM.

This well has been extended deeper once before so trying to go deeper again is not an option. In addition to the surging, it also pumps various amounts of sand into the system. The owner was planning on a new well but wanted to check and see if after all the rain we have gotten if the well may have come back. Evidently, it has not.

Since Florida has a lot of lime rock, clay and sand, there may be some differences to how a well recovers here then one in the rocky terrain of other parts of the country. Usually, well guys try and seat the casing in the lime rock (hard-pan) then bore on through to a good supply of water. For a drinking well, they try and hit a good aquifer. For irrigation, they will settle for a pocket.

Many of the shallower irrigation wells around this area of Fl are a bit on the sulfur side. It is kind of a shame that this well went bad since it was good clean water without the sulfur when it worked.

For the owner it is now an added expense he must deal with. For me, it is some additional work he will send my way when the new well is in since I will get the job of tying it into the irrigation system and connecting it to the controller.

Stimw · Jul 6, 2012

Here in Florida if a well is put down more than 50' you need a state licence.
We basically have two aquifers, the surface and deep. When they go down for a deep well they have to seal the casing so they don't co-mingle and or contaminate the deep aquifer.
If it is pumping sand there might be a joint in the steel casing that has rusted through. ????

Qapla · Jul 6, 2012

I am sure this well was put in by a State Licensed installer. It has been in for many years. I think it has just collapsed from the drought conditions over the past several years, thus the reason it needs to be abandoned and a new one put down in a different spot. The location they are planning on putting the new well is about 50'-75' from the old one.

I guess I should suggest that when the well company puts the new one in they need to supply enough wire to reach where the connections will be. I really don't want to have to splice the wire run.

bullockcm · Jul 6, 2012

Interesting to see the regional differences. Any idea why 4" wells are used instead of a larger diameter? Here in western NY we pretty much have clay & rock. Wells are typically 100 - 150 feet but can be as deep as 300 feet. Casings for residential and most farms are 6" with bigger farms being 8". We also spliced the wires at the top of the casing & used a pitless adapter which is saddle type fitting through the casing with an o-ring seal. Splicing the wires at the top of the casing made pulling the pumps easier which isn't uncommon due to lightening strikes.

Sounds like you have plenty of experience, good luck when it is install time.

Ranger Rick · Jul 6, 2012

Do you need 35 gpm or could you put in a smaller pump that would better match the flow of the well?

Qapla · Jul 7, 2012

bullockcm said:
... We also spliced the wires at the top of the casing & used a pitiless adapter which is saddle type fitting through the casing with an o-ring seal. Splicing the wires at the top of the casing made pulling the pumps easier which isn't uncommon due to lightening strikes...

Yes, I could just splice the wires at the top and this may be what I will have to do - I just need to either put them in a box or use water-tight splices.

As far as lightening, since Florida is sometimes called the "lightening capitol of the world" (we get more strikes then most places) this is one of the reasons that many well companies use the 3-wire systems (instead of the 2-wire) since that puts the control box with all cap actors and relays above ground and easy to replace. Lightening usually seems to take out the controller not the actual pump. However, with the 2-wire systems, the caps and such are down the well and the pump must be pulled after a hit.

As for the pitiless adapter, since we do not have the freeze worry, pitiless adapters are not common fare here. on many wells the casing extends above ground level with a well seal and the feed pipe connected to the drop pipe with a union.

Ranger Rick said:
Do you need 35 GPM or could you put in a smaller pump that would better match the flow of the well?

I have already revised this system to operate on the 35GPM and still cover without cycling the pump. I cannot make the zones any smaller since that would require running new wires and installing new irrigation clocks/controllers - not cost effective.

If I try to nozzle any smaller not only would I lose coverage, they only make the nozzles in certain usage amounts and I cannot change that. I need at least 35GPM on this system.

If it were a new install I would simply do a flow test and design/install the zones according to the delivery rate ... but, on an older, existing system you sometimes have to work with what there is and try to do the best you can to make it work.