My 202 just died, help

[Carl in CT]

Hi, I have a 1958 202 (I think it's a 58). I was digging a drainage ditch today with the backhoe when it suddenly died. I was on a bit of a slope facing down the hill and the gas tank was less than half full so I added more gas since the intake is at the rear of the tank. It started up and ran again for about 30 minutes and died again. I filled the tank the rest of the way this time but it won't even start, not so much as a sputter. Gas is getting to the carb, won't pop with starting fluid sprayed into the carb. Pulled the plugs (one was gross, the other 3 weren't bad). Hard to see in the daylight but I tried to check for spark and saw nothing. Could it be a bad coil or something like that? I am in a real mess and need to finish this ditch pronto, I am up the creek if I can't get this thing going.

Thanks

 

[Mike476]

Had mine do the same thing last fall, traced it back (plugs - coil - starter - battery - ground), found the positive cable was bad. No indication, battery terminals are cleaned and greased regularly (spring and fall). Replaced the cable and it's worked great since.

 

[Carl in CT]

I just replaced the cables last year but I will check them anyway tomorrow. Did yours crank or was it just stone dead? Mine will crank over, just shows no signs of starting, not even a pop or sputter. My first car was a 1976 Isuzu Opel (no relation to the German sportscar, not even close) and it used to go through coils every few months and it acted just like this except after it cooled down it would start and run until it heated up again then die.

 

[DJ54]

Has it been convertd to 12V, and have a resistor block..?? If so, check for current flowing through it. Had one on my 530 Case hoe, go instantly last summer...

 

[bindian]

Take the fuel line off at the carb and turn it over to see if you are getting fuel from the pump. Next, take a spark plug out, stick it back into the wire and ground the electrode and turn it over to see if it is getting spark.
hugs, Brandi

 

[Carl in CT]

Yup, it is 12 volt but not sure about the resistor block. I see something that looks like it might be it, not sure. I do see that the connections are all pretty rusty.

When I took the fuel line off earlier today it seemed to be getting fuel but I will check it again. I checked for spark too but not sure I had it grounded well enough. It was getting late and figured I'd try more tomorrow. Wish I had a garage or barn to work in but at least it's summer, hopefully I won't still be trying to do this all froze up in a couple months.

 

[Carl in CT]

I'm pretty sure this was 12 volt factory. The shop manual is listing the parts as 12 volt but it shows no resistor block. I see a part that looks like some sort of wire block but I don't see that in the manual, hmmmmmm. WHen I get home from church I'll see if I can get a pic of that.

 

[DJ54]

IF you find you are getting no spark, a test light to check to see if you're getting current from switch to coil, and beyond, is about the simplest way.

I checked on the AGCO Allis site, and it shows a direct wire from the switch, to the coil... Kinda... Shows wire going through a loom, and you lose which wire is which.

None the less, if you have current to the distributor, out of the coil, and no spark, it could be the condenser...

If you have a helper, you could have them roll it over, with the dist. cap removed, and you should see some spark coming off the points...

If you have spark there, I would turn the dist. cap over, and check the lugs for ionization. Seems the newer caps with aluminum lugs are worst... They get a buildup of a whiteish buildup. For a quickie fix, simply/carefully scrape off with you knife. Check the rotor button for a buildup too.

If you have spark, you may have sucked some junk into the carb... There should be a strainer screen, where your fuel line goes into the carb. Remove the fuel line at the carb., and the 90 degree brass EL it screws into, is part of that screen assembly.

 

[Mike476]

I just replaced the cables last year but I will check them anyway tomorrow. Did yours crank or was it just stone dead? Mine will crank over, just shows no signs of starting, not even a pop or sputter. My first car was a 1976 Isuzu Opel (no relation to the German sportscar, not even close) and it used to go through coils every few months and it acted just like this except after it cooled down it would start and run until it heated up again then die.

Mine would engage the starter solenoid ocassionally, but not enough power to turn the motor.

I used a light to troubleshoot as well, was all I needed.

As stated in one of the other posts, I'd ensure I'm getting fuel to the cylinders by pulling a plug. If you can turn it over your plugs will be damp and you should smell the fuel from the cylinder. If confirmed, and after allowing the fumes to clear, either using a plug grounded against the block or a rubber handled screwdriver into the plug lead, confirm your spark. If you don't have a spark there, DJ54's advice is what you'll need to do.

Let us know what you find.

 

[Carl in CT]

Well, I am definitely getting gas to the carb and when I pull the plugs they seem damp, definitely not bone dry. Not seeing any spark at the plug or at the points. In looking through the shop manual I see echlin part numbers written in next to the MHF part number for the points, condenser, cap and rotor. In fact there are also KEM part numbers too so I'm guessing this has been done at least twice before. Well, it's a 53 year old tractor so that stands to reason. Problem is neither the KEM (#81u) or Echlin (#RR141) condensers seem to be available locally, might have to order, don't want to wait. Actually can't even find the echlin ones listed, they seem to be ancient history. Would it really matter that much? Would any condenser for a 12 volt system work as long as it fits in there? What about the coil, are they that specific?

 

[DJ54]

Do you have a NAPA near by..?? They should be able to get it pretty quick, if not in stock. If you need to get done PDQ, I'd see if your local parts place has one the same size, and go with it... Maybe get the proper tune up kit asap...

I'm thinking coils are pretty generic, as long as it fits your space/clamp you have.

Did you try using a test light, to check for current..?? No use throwing parts at it, until you narrow it down, and maybe still not correct the problem...

Could even be the insulation off of a wire grounding out, and losing current along the way. Check for current, even through the side of the distributor, if you find it that far, to the inside.

Are the points even breaking..?? Sometimes they can get a small teat on them, and make them not work. Maybe just burned, and need cleaned/filed, and readjusted.... They won't last long once they are filed on, but should get you through a project...

 

[Carl in CT]

I do have a NAPA nearby, tried to call them today but closed on Sunday. Unfortunately I have to go have a procedure done at the doctor tomorrow. Should only be laid up a day or two before I can do light duty work at least.

I did check the battery cables visually and they look good since they are pretty new, no signes of breaks, etc. I didn't remove the points, I just watched them as I turned it over and didn't see spark. I will see if I can get a tune-up kit, maybe new coil, coil wire and plug wires too as they all look pretty old anyway. I guess I could wait and buy at test light first, any suggestions on a good one that wont cost an arm and a leg?

 

[Mike476]

It is a 12 volt. Twice a year I clean all electrical connections, re-grease them and put it back together. Not that much of a task, not a whole lot of electronics on the old girl.

Also, I buy the points / condensor and rotor button in a tune up kit, very inexpensive. My local JD dealer keeps them in stock. I learned the first couple of years I had the tractor that it will start to burn out points every 12-18 months, depending on usage.

The symptoms you've described sound more like a coil problem than points. When the points start to burn you'll notice your tractor run rougher and start harder. In your case, before it quit all together, it ran until it got hot, then shut down and wouldn't start. Typical signs of a coil problem. I thought you said you had just changed the coil recently, not that uncommon to get a bad replacement coil but can send a person into a tail spin when replacement parts fail so quickly.

Edit: test light can be purchased for around $10, just a simple probe with a clear plastic handle that has a light in it, ground wire from the top of the handle, looks about the size of a jewellers screwdriver.

 

[Carl in CT]

Nope, I haven't replaced the coil, just the battery cables. I have seen those test lights before, wasn't sure if there was something different I should be looking for, sounds like the garden variety will do fine. I will call the New Holland/Kubota dealer up the road, they usually have a good stock of parts, if not them there is a JD dealer a little further away I can check with too.

The electrical connections are pretty rusty, not well maintained by previous owners so now it will be a little bigger task for me to clean them up but I guess I better do it.

 

[grove57]

I'm thinking coils are pretty generic, as long as it fits your space/clamp you have.
...

In my experience, this is true - especially in a pinch. When I was a just starting out as a hog/vegetable farmer with no land or equipment of my own I had to do a lot of scraping by. I saved old coils, plugs, wires, condensors, etc. I found nearly any part could act as a substitute for the correct part until $$ was available to fix it correctly.

 

[Carl in CT]

OK, so I got a test light today and talked to my tractor mechanic buddy on the phone and here's what I have so far. Power at the key switch, power to that side of the coil, power on the other side of the coil intermittantly as I crank the engine (on and off as the points open and close he said), definitely no spark at the plugs. So that would seem to indicate a bad condenser and possibly rotor and cap (although they look fairly new, not burned or corroded) and maybe coil too. He could not stay on the phone with me as I tested so I hope I am not missing something.

Any other thoughts?

Can't find the parts local in stock, JD dealer had no trouble finding Tisco numbers and can get them quickest for reasonable price (New Holland/Kubota dealer could not even get a part number and Massey Ferguson dealer was only slightly better but is almost double the cost of the JD dealer for some reason).

 

[rjmack]

just curious, does that have delco-remy electrical equipment in it? i/d should be easy to find on the starter or generator.

also, if you unplug the coil wire from the distributor, hold the bare end, and give it a crank... you will know whether or not the coil is good. it's been a while since i had to try that, but i'm sure many people have done it and survived none the worse for wear...:thumbsup:

far as 12v coils, i think they have an internal resistor, or they don't.
have you got any old cars or trucks sitting in the bushes?

 

[Mike476]

[also, if you unplug the coil wire from the distributor, hold the bare end, and give it a crank... you will know whether or not the coil is good. it's been a while since i had to try that, but i'm sure many people have done it and survived none the worse for wear...:thumbsup:

Too funny, reminds me of when I was 11, we had an old elan snowmobile that just quit. Hung around dad all the time so he asked me to pull the plug wire off and hold it, he pulled the motor over.. "just checkin to see if she was gettin er fire son" .... followed by a chuckle. I learned pretty quick a screwdriver in the end of a lead gapped against the block works just as well, and a lot easier on the nerves.

 

[Carl in CT]

Generator is Delco-Remy and that's what the previous owner had scribbled in the manual. I tried the screwdriver test and saw decent spark so maybe the coil is OK. No old cars sitting around but my buddy said I could get by with a generic 12v oil filled coil if I need one fast. I may see if the New Holland dealer can manage to round up something close for the condenser and maybe coil so I can try it today, they are only 5 mins away. If not I'll just get the parts from the JD dealer so I have the right ones for sure, hopefully by the weekend. I am going to see if I can get new coil/plug wires too as they look pretty old and nasty (as do the plugs) and part of the end of the coil wire fell off when I was testing it so seems like a good idea to replace them.

We had an Elan when I was a kid too. Neat little machine, wish we still had it. I remember riding it on Lake Winnipesaukee in New Hampshire in the spring when the snow was melted off the ice. The newer sleds with sliders need the snow to keep them sliding along the track but those old school bogey wheels on the Elan were greased so we had a blast spinning around on the ice.

 

[rjmack]

Generator is Delco-Remy and that's what the previous owner had scribbled in the manual

delco-remy has been used in general motors products since at least the '50's that i'm aware of.

at least you know the problem is between the coil wire-in at the distributor, and the sparks plugs.

doesn't seem likely that the plug wires or plugs would cause sudden demise, so that leaves the distributor.

are you sure you don't have a loose wire somewhere inside? points usually fail gradually, not sure about condenser... whereas if a wire got loose, rattled around a bit, and fell off something... maybe the insulation has worn off a wire and shorting to ground?

edit: oops... missed the part about the end of the coil wire falling off. that's really suspicious.