More Robin trouble

   / More Robin trouble #1  

Scott_F

Silver Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2002
Messages
137
Location
Patuxent River, MD
Tractor
Kubota B2650
Having trouble with the Robin again. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif I can mow for about 30-45 minutes with no problem, then it will start cycling or chugging (as if starving for gas). I can keep it running (barely) by turning off the PTO and pulling the choke about 1/2 to 3/4 down, going to idle, turning off the choke, and throttling back up, but it won't pick up the PTO load again (at least not for very long). After it cools down for 45 min or an hour, it will run fine again for another 30-45 minutes. I've cleaned the bowl in the carb, sprayed carb cleaner through it and changed the fuel filter. I've been trying to roughly correlate how long it runs with ambient air temp, and I think the hotter it is, the less running time I get out of it.

Any suggestions? Is this vapor lock?

Thanks,
Scott
 
   / More Robin trouble #2  
This sounds a lot like vapor lock. Vapor lock was much more common with carbureted engines - to my recollection, it is caused by gasoline in the fuel-supply becoming a vapor - this causes the gasoline to stop flowing through the affected area, since a normal fuel delivery system is designed to move liquid. The normal fixes were to evaluate where the system would have a temperature that would be high enough to vaporize the fuel, and then altering the system so that this would no longer occur, either through re-routing fuel lines, or using thermal shielding. Placing fuel under pressure would also mitigate the tendency to develop vapor lock, to my recollection.

You guys have any ideas for Scott?

-Rob /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / More Robin trouble #3  
<font color="blue"> I can mow for about 30-45 minutes with no problem, then it will start cycling or chugging (as if starving for gas). I can keep it running (barely) by turning off the PTO and pulling the choke about 1/2 to 3/4 down, going to idle, turning off the choke, and throttling back up, but it won't pick up the PTO load again (at least not for very long). </font>

Pulling the choke would shut off some air. This might indicate that the mixture is getting lean, which means no fuel. Since you've cleaned the bowl and carb and changed fuel filters, what's left? Is the fuel tank venting properly? Could it be creating a vacuum? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
   / More Robin trouble #4  
There was another thread 1430 fuel problem with similar symptoms on a 1430. The problem turned out to be debris in the fuel tank and fuel line that was causing fuel starvation.
 
   / More Robin trouble #5  
Scott_f
Good evening sir, please allow me to begin by saying that I do not have nor have I even seen a pt with a robin engine so I don't know how easy it is to access the engine,but for all practical purposes I would think gas is gas. The first thing I would do is start at the float bowl and when it quits before recranking take the bowl off and see if it is full or not, if it is then you can still be boiling fuel in the carb but it's not likely,if its not then start going backwards a step at a time to figure where the fuel stops at if its going into the pump but not out , pumps bad , if its going thru pump but still not going to carb see if the line has an obstuction if not you could be vapor locking one easy quick fix for vapor lock on our old cars was we would take old style wood clothes pins (spring loaded) and clip on the fuel line(as many as possible) wood is a good insulator if this worked we would then reroute. If your problem is on the supply side of the pump ,same deal, also when it quits see if you can make the problem go away by just loosening the fuel cap( plugged vent) also check for collapsed fuel lines ,another sign of plugged vents. If you do it one step at a time by the time you get to the fuel tank you won't have much doubt where your problem is.

(also should have added the first time all the other gentlemen are right on track)
 
   / More Robin trouble #6  
Here's an article I found that shows one auto expert's view on vapor lock and how to solve it. Here's the URL: Vapor Lock Problem

My problem is with a '92 Ford Explorer. When I drive it long enough to get the engine hot, it won't start if I shut it off and it sits for a few minutes. My temperature gauge doesn't give a high reading, but it does seem hot when I pop the hood. When it doesn't start, the fuel pump doesn't seem to engage when I turn the key without turning it enough to engage the starter. The engine turns over fine, but it just doesn't fire. To me it seems like it isn't getting any fuel. I have tried holding the pedal down and pumping the accelerator, even though it is fuel-injected, to try and get some gas to the cylinders. Another possible symptom is that the brake pedal seems to get pressurized and I can't press it down, but is this just caused by turning the engine over many times without it firing? The truck runs great otherwise. And it will start if I give it ample time to cool down. I had the fuel pump replaced last year and I changed the fuel pressure regulator myself last year, so I don't think either of those are the problem. My guess is it is flooding or something like a sensor or a chip is keeping the fuel pump from engaging because the engine is hot.



ACould this be a classic case of vapor lock? Very possibly. Vapor lock used to be a common affliction with carbureted engines during summertime heat. Engine and exhaust heat would raise temperatures under the hood and near the fuel line until the fuel literally boiled. As the fuel boiled in the fuel line, the fuel pump could no longer pump it. If the engine was running at the time -- not at all uncommon -- the symptom was a complete loss of power. In many cases the engine continued to idle, but would not react to opening the throttle at all. If the engine vapor locked after shutting it down hot, the symptoms were precisely as you've described -- it will crank over but not fire. Can vapor lock occur with modern fuel-injected engines? Absolutely.



Reflecting on the basics -- an engine needs air, fuel and ignition to run -- your best course of action is to check for fuel and spark while cranking the engine in the "no-start" condition. An old spark plug or timing light can be used to check for spark. With the key off, adding a small amount of fuel or volatile aerosol through the throttle body or a vacuum line, then cranking the engine, should tell if it is a fuel starvation problem.



If the engine starts and runs for a couple of seconds on the fuel you added, it's either vapor lock or some continuing issue with the fuel pump, fuel pump relay or computer system.



If you determine it is a loss of fuel pressure, try carrying a large squirt bottle of water in the car so that when this scenario occurs you can spray individual fuel system components under the hood such as the fuel rail, pressure regulator, throttle body, etc., to rapidly cool them off, then try restarting the engine. If you find you can get the engine running again by cooling, for example, the fuel rail, then you've identified vapor lock as the problem.



The only solution is to lower underhood operating temperatures by servicing the cooling system and cleaning debris from in front of the radiator and A/C condenser, and trying a different source of fuel. You might find a fuel with a slightly lower vapor pressure that will reduce the potential for vapor lock.



Also, here's a tip. When you know you're only going to stop for a few moments, pop the hood open and let the engine idle for a minute or so before you shut it off. This will help carry some of the engine heat into the radiator and dissipate it into the atmosphere. Leave the hood open on the safety catch until you return to the car, to continue the cooling process. Remember to shut the hood before you drive away.



As for the "hardness" in the brake pedal, not to worry, this occurs because there's not enough engine vacuum available for power assist to the brakes while you're cranking the engine.



And finally, it is possible that the fuel pump relay is not being energized or that the pump's not running when you first turn the key on, but remember, the pump will only run for about two seconds with the key on, unless you begin cranking the engine.
 
   / More Robin trouble #7  
i had the same problem with my 422! the carb was full of junk (IT CAME FROM PT THAT WAY)i cleaned that out, but i also found they had the float together wrong.i also changed the filter but all the junk in the carb. must have past through the filter.
see if the line from the crank case is still connected and not leaking the vac . take the fuel line off at the pump see if you have gas getting to the pump.if everthing seems in order take the line off at the carb. and start the engine or just the starter spinning it over you should see if the fuel pump is working or not. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gifafter i cleaned this one up it runs like a bear /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
   / More Robin trouble #8  
Sorry to hear of your troubles...Everyone, here, has supplied great advice, let me toss in a couple more items...
1)Is the fan running on the hydraulic cooler when your lean surge develops...It's drawing cooler air into engine compartment...
2)I installed my clear plastic filter in a "downhill" run from the tank so that it is always full.(It didn't have a filter from PT or any shutoffs).
3)fuel hose connections either clamped or double tywrapped
4)clippings or debris partially clogging screen on front of engine(over flywheel, coils getting "hot")...(engine would just quit,not surge,though)
5)fuel source(gas station) maybe a "higher" alcohol % than normal...try a different brand...
6)obstruction made it through the bowl and partially clogging a main jet...(This was a cause for me with symptoms as you describe)

As an aside, just pulled my plugs(NGKBP4ES) after 49 hours of operation (53 on the clock) and they were clean as new in the electrode area with no discoloration or deposits observed...There was some black carbon deposits, though, on the outer rim of plug adjacent to threads which I attribute to the high idle times I subject this engine to.
Too, I don't know if the cocktail of Stabil and Marvel Mystery Oil is making a difference or not /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif...(Stabil to maintain "freshness" and MMO for a top end "lube").

You will find the cause... /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I will add on second thought that vapor lock as I understand it occurs on a carbureted engine "after" it has been shutdown and allowed to "heatsoak" It's this "heatsoak" period where the fuel "vaporizes" and the engine fails to restart...I'm not familiar with vaporlock occuring on a running engine "except" in the case of a PT2422 (what a coincidence) where the fuel tank is in the front section and a long fuel line runs adjacent and parallel to "hot" hyd. lines on it's way to the engine in the rear section...
 
   / More Robin trouble
  • Thread Starter
#9  
Thanks for all the great replies. Let me furthur address what I've done or thought with respect to all these suggestions:

MR - I hadn't thought about the tank not venting. Next time I'll take off the cap and see what happens - but, like others, mine leaks a little around the cap fitting, so I imagine it could probably draw air even if the cap wasn't venting.

I'll take check the fuel line downstream of the pump, but my question here is if the pump is bad, why would it run for a while - wouldn't it just not start in the first place? I think upstream of the pump is good The filter is full, even when it's trying to quit.

Will take another look in the bowl and see if there is more stuff in it. johara- how was the float misassembled? I think I remember you saying that when you fixed your carb, it stopped dieseling as well - mine still diesels. I'm not sure the carb is 100% right.

Which brings me back to vapor lock. bkmar - I know that air cooled aircraft engines can vapor lock in flight (very bad). This is partly why they still use leaded gas. BTW, see "Autogas vs. Avgas" at http://www.eaa.org/education/fuel/index.html for an intersting look at the chemistry of gasoline. I was thinking of trying some premium gas just to see what happens. I was also comparing MR's pictures of the Kohler to my Robin. The air cleaner cover on the Robin extends down very low so that it essentially funnels all the hot air from the top of engine to the area around the carb with no place for it to chimney on out the top. Could the gas in the carb just be so hot that it boils? I'm not ready to take the Dremmel to the cover yet, but I wonder...

Another frustrating thing about this problem is that if I took it to a shop, I'd have to pay them an extra hour's labor just to mow their grass for 45 min. while waiting for the symptoms to show up.

Thanks again for all the suggestions,
Scott
 
   / More Robin trouble #10  
hi Scott, Is the engine under warranty?? If it is the shop shouldnt charge you anything. I would bet if you let it run at full throttle for the same time it will do the same thing. The shop should just let it run out side at no charge. It sound like a bad shop to take it to. I work at 1 over the winter. Ill make a call to see what the guys at the shop have to say. O my thought was vapor lock or crap in the carb. My kohler on my ZTR did the same . It was dirt in the carb. Cleaned it out & done . Good luck Brian
 
 
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