More crazy 6.0 stuff

[Robbie Hegwood]

What do you think is causing the surging problem? While idleing it will just surge like to tapped the gas peddle. Ford said it was the EGR tube. I'm just going by what they told me.

I buy fuel at a local quicktrip and a kroger up the street. The only difference between the two is QT is ULSD and kroger is still LSD the last time I remembered to look. I typically burn 2 tanks a week. Where to you buy the cetane boost stuff? I've never seen it before.

As far as idling that's hard. Everything has to be up to temp to start pulling for either way from my house are hills. Also when I get home the exhaust temp is still high so I idle it till it cools. Any thoughts? Robbie

 

[HGM]

What do you think is causing the surging problem? While idleing it will just surge like to tapped the gas peddle. Ford said it was the EGR tube. I'm just going by what they told me.

I buy fuel at a local quicktrip and a kroger up the street. The only difference between the two is QT is ULSD and kroger is still LSD the last time I remembered to look. I typically burn 2 tanks a week. Where to you buy the cetane boost stuff? I've never seen it before.

As far as idling that's hard. Everything has to be up to temp to start pulling for either way from my house are hills. Also when I get home the exhaust temp is still high so I idle it till it cools. Any thoughts? Robbie

You can buy Motorcraft cetane booster at the dealer. Power Services can be bought at Walmart, or just about anywhere. Stanadyne is a very good product and can usually be bought at a truck stop or maybe parts store.

Not sure about an EGR "tube", if they meant the cooler it could be clogged but wont cause a surge. The EGR can definitly cause the surge, but like I said it's usually accompanied by black smoke... It could also be the EBP(Exhaust Backpressure Sensor)or EBP "tube".. This sensor is what the PCM uses to determine turbo and EGR activity and verify their movement. The tubo is used to control backpressure, boost is just a side effect produced by backpressure changes. If the EGR sticks, the turbo will react to BP changes in an erratic way, the same holds true for the EGR if the turbo sticks.The carbon is most likely whats causing the problem and reoccurance of EGR issues. The carbon comes from incomplete combustion, caused by excessive idle time and or poor fuel quality. The booster is a must IMO, it will not only reduce carbon, but I have seen it dry existing carbon/soot, allowing some of it to get blown out.. The idle time can be tough... On cold mornings, I would use the block heater(over night) to minimize warm up time(also nice to have the cab warm when you get in ) and try to limit idel time as much as possible.. Cooldown, it should be just fine to shut it down when you get where your going with a 5min or less idletime).. I wouldnt immagine it would be that hot unless it was overloaded or overworked..

Also, I didnt notice what year the truck was. I can give a suggestion for the idle time but its year dependant. There is an idle kicker that you can install, that will run the RPM at approx 1200RPM to keep a little heat in the engine and reduce carbon build up..

 

[Robbie Hegwood]

Thanks again Greg for taking the time to offer advice. I will definitely watch the length of idleing. I usually let it idle/cool when I get home and go see my 18 month old son and forget it's running. So I'm guilty of WAY to long idles. So hopefully I can cure that problem, go buy some additive, and get it to the shop for a once over and maybe maintain it better with proper procedures. I have also seen those "cool down timers" but never thought much about them. I just need to made a conscious effort to lower idle time and run some additive.

Since you obviously have run both additives and being I need to get my truck into shape which would you recommend? My Ford dealer is pretty close so I can purchase wherever.

Oh yea almost forgot, my truck is a '04 and I believe without the temp sensor in the intake tube. I think there was a 1/2 year model for '04's. Does that sound right? Mine had the plastic intercooler return piping that they replaced with metal when it was in for another problem.

Robbie

 

[HGM]

You could run either one and get good results. However, the Motorcraft version is the one I used when I saw the wet nasty soot on the EGR turn to dust. We did overdose a bit , but for one treatment, you woulldnt be hurting anything..

As for the model year, the '04 was a split year with different characteristics.. Both should have the Intake Air Temp sensor(IAT) in the Mass AirFlow sensor(MAF), so it would appear that it doesnt have an IAT at all, but it's there..The easiest way,by far, to tell if its an early build or late build is by looking at the R/H(passenger side) valve cover. If it has a 3 wire sensor in the cover near the front of the engine, its a late build. The early builds are located in the back of the engine where you cannot see it. Thats the Injector Control Pressure(ICP) sensor..

Either way, the idle kicker will cost you a bit.. They call it an APCM and its intended for tow trucks and PTO's as well as ambulances that idle alot, you can set the idle to 1800 if you wanted to.. Its a very good unit, but if you can limit your idle time, I wouldnt spend the money in your case, they arent cheap. If it was a later model, you could do something similar with a toggle switch.. Oh well.. Try that fuel treatment, go heavy on the first tank or two and see if that helps your problem, I've had it fix missfires too, its really good stuff..

 

[KICK]

does Ford use EGr at idle??


I doubt it but you never know.

 

[HGM]

does Ford use EGr at idle??


I doubt it but you never know.

They had some issues with it coking at idle on the 6.0L and later calibrations turned it off after 5 min of idle time... Its still a good place for carbon to build especially with minimum flow and low temperatures created by the idle time...

The 6.4L will run it every chance it gets.. Its going to be more resistant to carbon, but you cant eliminate it totally.. So, short idle times will always be a good idea..

How are the bigger trucks dealing with EGR coking? I hear they all have issues with it..

 

[PBinWA]

Greg, you are truly an asset to Ford or at least to us Ford owners!

Thanks for you input on these threads!

 

[HGM]

Greg, you are truly an asset to Ford or at least to us Ford owners!

Thanks for you input on these threads!

There's alot of poor info out there.These things are a HUGE investment anymore, that bad info can make it a bad experience owning a new style diesel engine.. If I can help to clear something up for you guys that actually own them, I'm more than happy to do so..

 

[KICK]

reason I asked was the big guys like cummins and detroit dont go into EGr mode unless some conditions are met, like above 1100 rpm, not full throttle and engine temp above a certain point.

I doubt EGR is effective at idle, they only use it to reduce NOx emissions,, which occur at high cylinder temps, which aren't a factor at idle.

also probably hard to get EGr flow at idle, due to low exhaust pressure.

whatever, really!, if it was mine I'd disconnect the stuff and figure out a way to recalibrate the ECM outta EGr mode. probably stick a regular wastegated turbo on the thing and call it good to go.

 

[Lynkage]

There's alot of poor info out there.These things are a HUGE investment anymore, that bad info can make it a bad experience owning a new style diesel engine.. If I can help to clear something up for you guys that actually own them, I'm more than happy to do so..

Thanks for that help Greg. I for one do appreciate people who know about these things so as owners like me can get the real deal instead of speculation.

 

[HGM]

reason I asked was the big guys like cummins and detroit dont go into EGr mode unless some conditions are met, like above 1100 rpm, not full throttle and engine temp above a certain point.

I doubt EGR is effective at idle, they only use it to reduce NOx emissions,, which occur at high cylinder temps, which aren't a factor at idle.

also probably hard to get EGr flow at idle, due to low exhaust pressure.

whatever, really!, if it was mine I'd disconnect the stuff and figure out a way to recalibrate the ECM outta EGr mode. probably stick a regular wastegated turbo on the thing and call it good to go.

Well, dont forget too that EGR also reduces engine noise.. Its a benefit for a diesel to be "quiet" enough to run through the McDonalds drivethrough... Really, marketing plays a big part in this too..

 

[cp1969]

How does egr quiet the engine? I have always likened egr to running a tube from one's rear to one's nose and using that as part of your personal intake air. You wouldn't like it; I see no reason why your engine should, either.

 

[em14]

cp1969 ...
I'm going to be laughing for a month .. that's a great comment!
Leo

 

[HGM]

How does egr quiet the engine? I have always likened egr to running a tube from one's rear to one's nose and using that as part of your personal intake air. You wouldn't like it; I see no reason why your engine should, either.

EGR lowers combustion temperatures. It does this by displasing O2 in the combustion chamber with an inert gas. On a diesel(unlike a gasburner), there is an over abundance of O2. By diluting/reducing the O2 in the cyl, you can basicly reduce the size of the cyl... Less fuel + less air = less bang/less heat.. EGR can flow on a diesel under most operating conditions.

 

[KICK]

EGR can flow on a diesel under most operating conditions.

I dont think so.

think about it...

imagine a situation where you have 20 psi of boost pressure in the intake manifold and 1 psi in the exhaust system, how can the low pressure flow into the higher pressure area?


in order to make egr work, they need to create high exhaust back pressure.

in comes the "VNT" to create high exhaust back pressure.

they need the exhaust back pressure to be higher than the pressure in the intake manifold which is under boost.

in comes the" VNT" to regulate boost simultaneously with increasing the exhaust back pressure.

 

[KICK]

Well, dont forget too that EGR also reduces engine noise.. D

thats too funny.

the way the injection of fuel is accomplished accounts for most of the improvement

lots of the electronic controlled engines that are so quiet now have fuel delivered in more than one injection pulse

the injection is pulsed and timed over a longer period of time than it used to be

 

[HGM]

I dont think so.

think about it...

imagine a situation where you have 20 psi of boost pressure in the intake manifold and 1 psi in the exhaust system, how can the low pressure flow into the higher pressure area?


in order to make egr work, they need to create high exhaust back pressure.

in comes the "VNT" to create high exhaust back pressure.

they need the exhaust back pressure to be higher than the pressure in the intake manifold which is under boost.

in comes the" VNT" to regulate boost simultaneously with increasing the exhaust back pressure.

Maybe you need to think about it.. You just answered your own doubt... The VGT changes backpressure. As the backpressure is increased(into the 50+psi range under hard accell) EGR will most cretainly flow into the puny 32PSI intake pressure... I have recordings I can show you to prove it and a truck we can road test if your ever in the Atlanta area..

 

[HGM]

thats too funny.

the way the injection of fuel is accomplished accounts for most of the improvement

lots of the electronic controlled engines that are so quiet now have fuel delivered in more than one injection pulse

the injection is pulsed and timed over a longer period of time than it used to be

Yes you are correct that injection style and timing plays a HUGE part of the "noise" factor. But EGR does in fact lower noise as well.. If you have a tool that can command EGR flow at idle, try it sometime...

A diesel engine has an unrestricted flow of fresh air, unlike a gasburner. Even by cutting the fuel back, we still cannot control temperatures. So, by replacing the O2 with EGR, the whole combustion dynamic can be changed/taylored into the proper air fuel ratio. This can now be done throughout the whole RPM range. A diesel WILL flow EGR whenever the PCM decides it can do so without creating driveability concerns.

KICK, I respect your opinion and you certainly know what you are talking about on the big stuff. But once again, your assumptions that the smaller stuff opperates ecactly the same way are not correct.

 

[KICK]

A diesel engine has an unrestricted flow of fresh air, unlike a gasburner. Even by cutting the fuel back, we still cannot control temperatures. So, by replacing the O2 with EGR, the whole combustion dynamic can be changed/taylored into the proper air fuel ratio. This can now be done throughout the whole RPM range. A diesel WILL flow EGR whenever the PCM decides it can do so without creating driveability concerns.

.

it sure does have an unrestricted flow of air, it also doesn't have any vacuum to help pull anything into the intake,although engine does draw air in , main reason for vnt is to control the exhaust backpressure and the boost to give the ability to mix the burnt gases with the clean air when EGR is commanded by the ECM, Idle happens to be low boost and relatively low exhaust flow, also low cylinder temps, thats why egr is inneffective at idle, doesn't mean ford don't do it.

the proper air fuel ratio is determined by the amount of fuel injected into a cylinder, no stoichiometric fuel air ratio like a gasser.

the science behind EGr is that since it is already a burnt gas, it is inert and it helps lower peak combusture temperatures... if Ford needs it at idle, I'm sure they can command it. mostly been my experience they don't need it at idle, engine isn't doing very much wwork wise and running clean

 

[HGM]

it sure does have an unrestricted flow of air, it also doesn't have any vacuum to help pull anything into the intake,although engine does draw air in , main reason for vnt is to control the exhaust backpressure and the boost to give the ability to mix the burnt gases with the clean air when EGR is commanded by the ECM, Idle happens to be low boost and relatively low exhaust flow, also low cylinder temps, thats why egr is inneffective at idle, doesn't mean ford don't do it.

the proper air fuel ratio is determined by the amount of fuel injected into a cylinder, no stoichiometric fuel air ratio like a gasser.

the science behind EGr is that since it is already a burnt gas, it is inert and it helps lower peak combusture temperatures... if Ford needs it at idle, I'm sure they can command it. mostly been my experience they don't need it at idle, engine isn't doing very much wwork wise and running clean

OK...